Noam: Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal: I’m Mijal.
Mijal: I’m Noam. And this podcast is our way of trying to unpack those really big questions being asked by Jewish people, by non-Jewish people about the Jewish story, about the Jewish people, about the Jewish state often, about Judaism. We absolutely do not have it all figured out, but we try to learn together to wonder together.
As we say every week, we really appreciate and enjoy hearing from you. So please email us at wonderingjews@unpacked.media. That’s wonderingjews@unpacked.media.
And I would say especially, you know, as we are reflecting on this 12 crazy days of war between Israel and Iran, please write to us. What do you wish you want to hear more of that’s not, you know, just like the geopolitical analysis that’s everywhere.
Noam: Yeah, like you said, Mijal, I want to also just hear from people in terms of other things that are on their minds during these really unique, unprecedented days.
So, Mijal, you have a lot going on, I got a lot going on. We all have a lot going on in the world and we just wanted to make sure that you and I connected to talk about reflecting on what we’re seeing right now, what’s on our mind right now. So I have three reflections and maybe you have three also. I don’t know. So you want to go back and forth here?
Mijal: Go for it. Yeah, start.
Noam: Okay. The reflection number one that I have 12 days in, again, that’s the framing, 12 days in, is empathy and I’ll tell you why. I’m gonna start with empathy. Empathy to Israelis and empathy to Iranians. And I’ll explain what I mean. Empathy to both. I think about Israelis still carrying the trauma of October 7th. I think about Iranians trapped under a regime they didn’t choose. I think about Jews around the world feeling shaken and about people who genuinely care but don’t know what to say or how to show up at all.
I just wanna give you an example from my team in Israel right now, we have a whole Slack group and in the Slack group, they’re the people in Israel, one of our producers, Rivky, is in Israel right now and half the team’s in Israel. And one of the people wrote this, please help me settle a dispute. If we get a warning about incoming missiles, but then we don’t get a siren, do we have to wait for an alert to say that all is clear or can we then continue with our day? Meaning like, these are the things that are on their minds right now while trying to work, while trying to do a thousand different things. It’s crazy.
So people around the world just hear that. Help me settle a dispute. If we get a warning about an incoming missile, but don’t get a siren, how do we deal with that? Like that’s crazy that that’s what’s on their minds right now. That’s crazy. So I’m just, like, very focused on that. And that’s in terms of Israelis.
And I was doing some research in terms of Iranians. I just didn’t know so much about this. There was a 2020 religion survey in Iran. 47% of Iranians said they lost their religion. 22% identified as non-believers, meaning atheists or agnostic.Only 32 % said they were Shia Muslims compared to the official figure, which is 90 to 95%. 70% said religion should be separated from politics. Then I started looking at their comparison of their daily prayer compared to other Muslim or Arab countries. It’s significantly less than Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan. It’s remarkable.
And when I think about Iranians, I think about the fact that it’s so clear that clerical rule backfired. That after 45 years of the Islamic Republic, many Iranians associate religion with repression, corruption, and hypocrisy. And so there’s so much going on that I want to like, Iranians and the leadership of Iran are two very different things. So I have real empathy for Iranians and I have empathy for Israelis who are just like, just think about what they’ve been going through since the 7th of October. They need a reprieve.
That’s what’s on my mind.
Mijal: Yeah, I would say Noam, even before the 7th of October, you know, judicial reform, elections, COVID, all of that. Yeah, and we are recording this on Tuesday, June 24th. So I’ll add to your takeaway on empathy that four Israelis were killed last night or early this morning on strikes on Be’er Sheva. So of course, keeping them in our minds. May their memories be a blessing and keeping everybody in our prayers.
Let me add a takeaway here and I’m going to just like shift directions. I’m thinking a lot for American Jews, for Jews, for Israelis, how hard, this is not fully cooked, just gonna say it. But I think we really struggle with, kind of like with having a victorious mindset. Like there’s a lot of things that happened in the last 12 days that according to every single prediction of military experts, and national leaders should have gone really badly in terms of Israel’s attack on Iran. The success it has had is kind of insane. I’m going to use religious language for me. It’s miraculous.
And I was having a conversation with a good friend of mine who was telling me, she’s speaking to all these American Jews and everyone is so depressed and filled with despair. And I don’t want to make light of the challenges that we have facing us, but I think we need to ask ourselves, why is it that we cannot pause sometimes and say, wow, this was successful. You know, we were victorious in this particular battle or we did well here and we need to keep building on this.
You know, I’ve been saying with my parents right now, my kids don’t have camp either after school and I love them. And one of the things that was so nice for me is motzei shabbat, when shabbat was over, and we heard the news about the US bombing Iranian nuclear plants and facilities. And we started singing, it’s a verse from the story of Purim and that the Jews were able to have a victory. That’s one takeaway I’m sitting with.
Noam: Joy, That’s way to, that’s like living in the Bible through the Bible in that sort of way, like actually feeling that. That’s great, that’s real, that’s personal, I like it.
Let me give you a second reflection. 12 days later, And people have been calling this the 12 day war, which doesn’t have the same ring as the six day war. But I just my reflection number two is to stop predicting the future, stop predicting the future. I think it was former ambassador Michael Oren who said, I have a hard enough time predicting the past. I’m not going to try to predict the future.
Mijal: And he’s a historian.
Noam: And his point was that, you know, it’s very hard to, yeah, he’s a historian. It’s just very hard to understand what happened in the past and people who are prognosticating about the future. was thinking about my Saturday afternoon, my Shabbat afternoon, it was like really, you know, people who know geopolitics really well and talking about like their philosophies on everything. And then a couple hours later, was like, what?
Noam: Didn’t see that one coming. And then last night I went to sleep with a ceasefire. I posted to my team like, wow, there’s a ceasefire. And then woke up to President Trump lambasting Israel for, you know, responding too much to Iran. And is it back on right now? And so like these are the questions that these are the thoughts that I have right now is stop predicting the future. It’s there’s such a desire and to do something like that. There’s such like an instinct, I should say, to do something like, want to tell you what’s going to happen. What’s the next step? And how should Americans and Israelis think about toppling the Iranian regime and what’s going to happen? How is it going to be toppled? Is it going to be toppled? Khomeini, is he done? Can he breathe? Like, just, just, just let’s, let’s stop predicting the future a little bit. Have a little bit more humility in the moment. I get the instinct, but maybe let’s pause a bit in terms of that, that instinct to predict.
Mijal: Yeah, and it’s one we all have. I share a reflection for me, I think throughout this whole war, I was really following very closely, almost obsessively, every single thing happening in Israel and also following a lot of American politics. And feeling here that an important takeaway is that we here in America have so much work to do, whether you’re on the left or the right, if you are on X, you might have heard the term woke right, which identifies the rise of an illiberal, and I would add here, pretty antisemitic, anti-Israel section of the right in America. And I’m also saying this from New York, today is Election Day, and there is an anti-Zionist candidate who has openly said that he likes the slogan globalizing the intifada.
And by the time this episode will come out, he might be the next Democratic candidate for New York City’s mayor. So we have a lot of work to do. And I think that there’s something funny about seeing the world change underneath you, even as you realize that, you know, it’s not gonna be over. It’s not like, you know, tomorrow we declare we won here, we did this, and now we can all relax. We have a ton of work to do.
Noam: Yeah, I mean, when I think of the statistics of New York City, I think it’s like 10% of New York City is Jewish, something like that, right?
Mijal: I don’t actually know, but it’s a lot.
Noam: I don’t know if it’s exactly that, but it’s a high percentage of New York City is Jewish. Yeah, it’s a serious percentage of New York City. I know that most Jewish people feel a very strong affiliation and connection to Israel. And so that is a scary thought. And I guess it’s gonna have to be reckoned with one way or the other.
But we’ll see what happens. knows what’s gonna happen? We’ll see. Here’s my last reflection. Is this. So I said empathy. I said stop predicting the future. Number three is it’s easy to get louder. It’s harder to get quieter. And to actually wonder, to listen, to make space for complexity without giving up on moral clarity. But I think there’s a value also in kind of
Mijal: Yeah. I have to work on it,
Noam: Like what I saying with number two is just like, for me, I can’t speak to other people on this, but I feel better when I’m not being so, I know it’s ironic because I have a few podcasts in the media company that I work with. But you know, there’s a, you know, like I just want to pause a little bit. Let’s not be so loud and let’s try to be a little quieter every now and then.
Mijal: Yeah, I think my third reflection is similar to your first one. I just have so much love and admiration to our people in Israel. I ran for so long and have been enduring so much. the name that was chosen for this war, this campaign, Am Kalavi, a nation rising like a lion, which is a biblical verse, just feels really apt. And if there’s any Israelis listening, I just want to share how much admiration and love and support you have from us here in America.
Noam: So those are our reflections 12, 13 days later. Mijal, thank you for reflecting with me.
Mijal: Of course, we’ll have more of this.
Noam: You know,like Mijal said in the very beginning, please like let us know if you ever have questions, you want us to be focusing on certain aspects, items. Please be in touch with us at WonderingJews@unpacked.media. Again, that’s WonderingJews@unpacked.media.
Wondering Jews as a production of Unpacked, an OpenDor Media brand. Today’s episode was hosted by me, Noam Weissman and by Mijal Bitton.
Our team includes Michael Weber, Jenny Falcon, Rivky Stern, and Alex Harris. It’s edited by Rob Pera.
We’d love to hear what this conversation sparked for you as always. Email us at WonderingJews@unpacked.media or find us on social at WonderingJews. And if you appreciate the show, we love hearing from you. Please share it with your friends, write a review. See you next time.