This summer, we did something we’ve never done before: we took Unpacking Israeli History to camp. Real teenagers, live conversation, no scripts.
This episode was filmed at Camp Lavi only three days after hundreds of campers showed up for their summer at sleepaway camp. They were fired up to spend weeks, or months, off with their friends, spending their days swimming, doing the ninja warrior ropes course, anything, having the time of their lives. But you know what’s crazy? On this night, hundreds of kids were here, spending their evening thinking about Israeli history. They leaned in, and they knew their history: Rabin, Golda, the Altalena, Entebbe, the Begin Doctrine. Name after name, moment after moment, they got it.
This one is personal for me too. I’ve spent many summers at Camp Lavi, and so has my family. This conversation felt less like a taping and more like a family sitting around asking hard questions together, which, after the show ended, is exactly what happened. Kids surrounded me for another thirty minutes just to keep talking.
Before we dive in, there is one moment I want to flag. A question came up about Neturei Karta, and I don’t think I answered it as well as I could have. I don’t want to bias you by saying more here. Listen for yourselves, and if you have thoughts, email me at noam@unpacked.media. I’d genuinely like to hear them.
Camp Lavi! Put your hands together for the one, the only Dr. Noam Weissman!
Noam: Got my cards. What’s up, what’s up? Let’s see. How are we doing? Hey guys, what’s going on, Camp Lavi? Everyone doing well?
Guys, am incredibly excited to do this. I want to make a note as we get started. This is something we haven’t done before in a teen setting. This is something we’ve done in London, we’ve done it in Chicago, we’ve done it in LA, we’ve done it in Miami, we’ve done it in many, many cities. But tonight, for the first time ever, we’re taking Unpacking Israeli History to a group of teenagers.
I want to tell you a little bit more about me also. I’m somebody and this is something I say is true that’s b known me for a while at all. But but, and the thing that I got is true for and anyone that knows this, I’m not a gambler. When the Knicks were playing the Hawks, I bet they would win the NBA finals. And that was a great bet. And I also told all my students that, who’s the top five player of the NBA? Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson.
Let’s try this out. Let’s try this out. You have cards in front of you. Agree or disagree? I’m looking around. Top five player of the NBA. Agree or disagree? Okay.
Alright, alright, we got more agrees than disagrees. We got more agrees than disagrees. Alright, bring it back, bring it back. All right, bring it back now.
I wanna thank, I wanna thank Ilana Rosenzweig and Sean Steinmetz. I wanna thank Corey who makes everything happen. Al Berger, Brian Farman that do everything. And I wanna thank, I wanna Unpacked team, raise your hand. Raise your hand. So thank you guys so much. Thank you for being here for making this happen.
Tonight I’m gonna ask you to transition from silly to serious, okay? You see here there are six chairs. On these six chairs, they’re gonna be six campers, staff, whatever. We’re gonna, and on the six, where we’re gonna be in conversation about some an incredibly serious topic about the story of Israel.
And before that, we’re gonna go into a little game. I’m gonna ask you agree or disagree, and we’re gonna be giving swag throughout all these different things throughout. Raise your hand, this is not agree or disagree. Raise your hand. Who here has heard of Unpacked?
Okay. That’s not bad. That’s not bad. Now everyone here has heard of Unpacked.
Rivky, we’re gonna start with our first activity. Let’s see how well we know our stuff. You ready? The the topic number one is, I want see if you can name this person. So here we go. Guess the leader. Number one, who is this? Number one, Moshe Dayan. Option two, Yitzhak Rabin. Option three, Ariel Sharon. Show me by numbers. Let’s see how they do.
Okay, who am I calling on? Right here. What’s your name? What’s your name?
Romi: Romi.
Noam: Where you from?
Romi: From Israel, Renana. Yitzhak Rabin.
Noam: Rabin, is that right? Very good, awesome. Okay, so I want you to I’m gonna say something. He said this line. I wanna know what you think about this.
“We can continue to fight, we can continue to kill, and continue to be killed. But we can also try to put a stop to this never ending cycle of blood. We can also give peace of chance.”
I want to know, do you agree or disagree? Learning is not seeing something in one way. It’s multiple perspectives. Show me. Next one.
Obviously I want peace, I don’t think that we can give peace to people who us to be killed.
Noam: There you have it. There you have it. Let’s go to the next one.
Okay. Now let’s see how we know our Religious Zionism. Who is this? Option number one: Rav Soloveitchik. Option two, Rav Kook. Option three, Rav Amital. Who is this? Who is this? Who is this? What’s the answer, Rivky? Rav Yehuda Amital. And what did he say?
He said if your Zionism do not make it more ethical, it has failed. If your religion does not make you more human, it has failed.
Oof. Agree or disagree? Let’s see. Agree or disagree.
Okay, let’s get Alex get someone over there. Who who’s passionate about this? Who’s passionate? Go for it. Go for it.
Rosie: My name is Rosie. I live in Englewood. I think that religion doesn’t have to make you more human. It just could be something that you believe in. It doesn’t have to be something that changes you.
Noam: Okay, respect. You wanna go for it? Over there. Again.
Camper: I actually agree with the statement because it like makes you more ethical. Because the whole point of Zionism is like have a state for the Jewish people. The whole point, a main point of religion is to be kind and to be nice, so that makes you more human.
Noam: There you go. There you go. Alright. I wanna do something called the Situation Room. I’m going to give you five different situations in the history of Israel. And in these five different situations, I want to ask what you would have done. That’s what this podcast is all about, because as Sean said, the reality is, so many people graduate high school and they go to college and they don’t known anything.
Did you know that 88% of Jews in America believe that Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, and yet only 37% identify as Zionist. That tells us something about how so many don’t understand the story, don’t understand the history.
So we’re gonna put you in the situation room. Situation number one, and I want to know what you would do. Israel has just declared independence and is fighting for its survival. But a ship called the Altalena is approaching the shore carrying weapons and fighters loyal to your rival, Menachem Begin, and the Irgun, which is a paramilitary force that has refused to fully submit to your new government’s authority. If you let the ship land on its own terms, you risk having an armed faction operating outside state control, but if you use force to stop it, you may be firing on fellow Jews in the middle of a war for Israel’s existence.
This happened in 1948. This is June of 1948. There is a ship called the Altalena, Menachem Begin and the Irgun were coming onto the Tel Aviv shores and the debate was for David Ben Gurion, should you order the ship to be destroyed and shoot on it, or negotiate a compromise. Which one should you do? Number one or number two? Number one or number two?
Wanna tell me your thoughts? Which one should you do?
Trudy: I think number two, because if there’s like other Jews on a ship, you don’t want to like hurt, like and if you’re able to negotiate a compromise you should do that because you don’t
Noam: So what we just got from Trudy, Trudy Lookstein said that you should not order the ship to be shelled. Anyone know what actually happened? David Ben Gurion ordered this is crazy 1948, David Ben Gurion ordered that the ship the Altalena be destroyed. Actually ordered the Haganah to kill around I think it was sixteen people in the Irgun, and this actually happened. And Menachem Begin famously said the following, there should never be civil war. So Menachem Begin chose not to shoot back. A huge moment.
I want to go to 1976. This story happened fifty years ago, next week. July fourth, 1976, the following happened. An Air France plane with Israeli Jewish hostages has been hijacked to Entebbe, Uganda, where dictator Idi Amin is sheltering the terrorists and their 48 hour deadline is ticking.
So here are two options. Option number one negotiate for the hostages release. Which one do you do? Everyone vote one or two.
Okay. Eyal Weissman, I want you to give me your thoughts why you say #2 and not #1.
Eyal: My name is Eyal Weissman. I live in Hollywood, Florida. I say authorize a military rescue operation because I don’t think the people that were the people holding the hostages would want to think about negotiating and would just say no, no, no, and yeah.
Noam: Love it, Eyal. Okay so here’s it here. Great job, son. So here’s what ended up happening. Yitzhak Rabin was re ordered that they should save the Jews and everyone that was kept hostage in 1976, this is fifty years ago next week. This happened fifty years ago and they saved everyone except for was killed three hostages anyone know the person who was killed let’s see let’s see what who was killed.
Yoni Netanyahu, very good. Brother of Bibi Netanyahu, amazing.
Alright, so I’m gonna pause here, Rivky. I’m gonna actually take a seat now. Now I’m gonna take a seat now. I told you guys, first of all, let me pause here.
Give yourselves a round of applause. A little bit better than that. Lavi! Come on, like be alive! Let’s go! Give yourselves a little something. Okay. So here’s what I want to do now.
The truth is that Sean was so right when he was saying that the story of Israel is something people know very little about, and people are fascinated and what teenagers actually know and don’t know. So we are six teenagers to the stage to be in conversation with me, about questions they have about the story of Israel. The first one is Liv. Come on, Liv. Number two is Jordan. Number three is Izzy. Then I got Adin. We got Caleb. And we got Charlie.
All right guys. Here’s what we’re gonna do. What’s up guys? By the way, what’s with the girls sitting on one side, and you guys just did the exact same thing. What is the deal with that? Can you answer that?
That’s how you called this up. It’s how you called this up.
Noam: By the way, that’s a smart answer. That’s a very smart answer. That’s an excellent answer.
Okay. Okay. So what is on your mind? I wanna know what the six of you. You guys are in grade, eleventh grade, twelfth grade, graduating high school. I wanna know for you guys as you’re graduating high school or as you’re in high school and how you think about Israel. So first and whatever;s on your mind, and we go back and forth, okay?
Adin: My name is Adin. I’m from Teaneck. And I wanted to ask that there are so many people that like they love Israel, but they think that they can’t criticize it. So I wanted to see like on the flip side, do you think that you can like truly love something and be willing to criticize it at the same time?
Noam: Okay, that’s a great question. That’s a great question. Listen, so let me tell you the way I think about this.
The way I think about this is, it depends on where your criticism is coming from. If you’re part of a family, if you’re part of a family and you want that family to succeed, you want that family to do well, you want your sister, your brother, your parent, you care about them, and you criticize them in order to uplift them, I think is incredibly healthy. And if you criticize someone in order to tear them down, I think it’s incredibly unhealthy.
So the answer is perspective, Israel, loves Israel, genuinely, in my from my perspective if you are someone that actually genuinely you might hear from your teacher sometimes and I’m not saying they do say this, that you can never criticize Israel that sort of in that sort of language, I don’t believe in that. Too many young people are graduating and they’re graduating schools thinking that perfect place. And the way I see it is anyone that you shouldn’t believe. And anyone that tells, graduate graduating their high school that Israel is this perfect, Is that tells you Israel is perfect? You shouldn’t believe. Anyone who says Israel is is a despicable shouldn’t believe, is an evil, you also believe. So those are the two extremes that I look at and I’m like, no, those are unhealthy ways to Israel. But if you talk about Israel in order to uplift you, that’s my take on that. But ways to talk about Israel. So in the way that you say this is a criticism in Israel, then that’s a totally different experience.
So that I have a question to the five of you. Do you agree or disagree with what I just said?
You agree? Everyone agrees. Okay. All right. Fine, cool. Next question.
Jordan: Hi, I’m Jordan Spalding and I’m going to UT next year. You have a lot of Haredim that are very anti-Zionistic because they believe that Israel shouldn’t be a state until Mashiach comes. But you also have Haredim that believe that Zionism is a mitzvah. How do people that get their values and their insights from the same Torah differentiate so much?
Noam: That’s an excellent question. That’s an excellent question. I love these questions. So Jordan wants to know how Haredim – I wanna explain to everyone listening who’s not here right now, Haredim are often described and defined as ultra orthodox. I don’t love that definition. I also wanna say that I’m not Haredi, and as a result of that, I don’t want to talk about a group of people that I don’t belong to. But here’s the way I think about this question.
There are so many different ways to serve one’s people, to help out one’s state. And if you are thinking about it in a way that is saying, I am here to volunteer to engage in something meaningful and serious and that is a very real thing that they’re doing. That is something that’s contributing to the Jewish state, that’s contributing to the state, contributing to Zionism. But Haredim often have a different take is that the Haredi world this has happened has a different place to participate in the Jewish story. What they think very often is that learning Torah is important and it’s a beautiful thing, and daven to Hashem is so important and a beautiful thing. But that’s a relationship.
The Zionist world view said something revolutionary. Zionist world said we are not going to just simply be passive and daven to Hashem and learn Torah. That matters, but it’s not nearly enough. We have to engage to be active. That’s a passive sort of relationship. The worldview. We have to be active. We have to be part of the story.
So if Haredim are not doing that sort of thing, then I would say then they’re not really participating in furthering the Jewish story.
So for me, I really want to figure out some sort of compromise where it’s not that the Haredim are, you know, choosing to not be in the Israeli army, which it, I, listen, I’m an American Jew, I’m not in the Israeli army, but it hurts me. Hurt me that they choose to not be part of it. It hurts me. When you see my uncle who’s 59 years old who’s still in reserves. He’s still in reserves in Gaza, fighting. My cousins who are in the north, fighting. And they’re still doing this and they’re in their thirties and forties and fifties and sixties because their brothers and sisters are not participating in this. That hurts me. And, and I wanna make regardless of what your your Jewish background is
And I just had Nas Daily on my podcast. Nas Daily was this content creator and he was saying, you know what? It’s not just Haredim, everyone should be in the Israeli army, Arabs should be in the Israeli army. if you’re Israeli, everyone. So that’s the way I think about it. I think it’s such an important background, you are actively and and if we don’t see that a lot. That’s my take. That regardless of your part of the Jewish story, contributing to it. That hurts.
Liv: I have something to add on what you said. A lot of Haredim believe that we shouldn’t have Israel until Mashiach comes, no?
Noam: There are people in the Haredi worldview. Okay. I’m going to be Hasidic for a second. There are people that the point of religion is top down, it’s God to man. An awakening from above. And then there are people who believe that religion is from man to God. There is a passage in the Talmud that says that the Jewish people should not preempt the messianic era. It does say that. But it also says that the Jewish people should not be subjugated too much. So there’s a debate between the Zionist worldview and the Haredi world view. And that debate existed until 1948. But once 1948 happened, and until the State of Israel was created, the vast majority of people who self identify as ultra Orthodox are Jewish state. Zionism wanna be part of the State of Israel. Also said we want to be part of the Jewish state.
There’s a small fringe group called the Neturei Karta. They are people who are fighting against the Jewish state. And I would argue that those people, this hurts me to say, are not part of Jewish people. It hurts me to say that. But when people are antagonizing and trying to upend the Jewish state, then they don’t actually represent the Jewish people. And those people are the people that I think are the fringe that gets way too much press. That’s my take on that.
Liv: But a lot of people say that learning Torah is equivalent to serving in the army. Like, people have different views on it. Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong?
Noam: Beautiful question. Staying on the Haredim question. Listen, I have tremendous empathy for the value of learning torah. But there are people like Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein and Rabbi Jesse Horn who is even in this camp, and many other great rabbis, who run hesder Yeshivas. And a hesder Yeshiva is a yeshiva in which you learn Torah, which is a primary value, and you’re serving in the army. Who is to say which is more important than the other? I’ll tell you who is to say, it’s the Jewish people. The Jewish people can’t possibly exist without fighting and defending themselves. They can’t exist. There’s a phrase in Israel called Chai Baseret. You can live in a fantasy land. Learning is beautiful and wonderful, but not the same as sacrificing – this is my opinion. By the way, this is my opinion. When people speak, people think they are the authority on the topic. You should go hear other perspectives. But my perspective is that the Jewish cannot exist without the state without the state of Israel, and the state of Israel cannot exist without Jewish men and women fighting to defend it. That’s my take.
Izzy: Some people say if you’re Jewish, you just love Israel, so I wanted to hear your take on it.
Noam: Do you know that only 42% of Jews in America between the ages of 18 to 40 can define what Zionism is? Did you know that after the 7th of October studies that were showing that young Jewish people would less favorable to Israel and less emotionally attached to Israel. I have to say what I said earlier, which is if you want to be part of the Jewish, you have to be part of the story. What does it mean to be Jewish? Atheistic Jew? Can you be an atheist and a Jew? What do you guys think? Yes or no? Agree or disagree?
What do you mean Okay. What do you what Charlie, what do you think? No, give the g take the mic. Take the mic. Can you be an atheist and be a a Jew?
Noam: Guys, what does it mean to be Jewish? What it means to be Jewish. So you say you can’t be Jewish. I say absolutely you can be Jewish. What does it mean to be Jewish? You and I are ultimately from one land, Judea. The difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is that with Islam and Christianity have to believe something. With Judaism, we have two different parts of our Jewish, which we have to have to believe certain things that we have a faith. But number two is we are a people, am israel, we are from a land, Judea. And that’s where we come from. And that’s agreed? Okay. Charlie, what do you got for me?
Charlie: People think this is the start of redemption. But after 10/7, how do people hold on to that belief?
Noam: That’s a fascinating question. Who here knows that many people in religious Zionism believe this is the start of the redemption, it’s the start of Messiah. Well, on 10/7, 1,200 Jews were killed, taken hostage, massacred, I don’t want to say some of the things that happened to them. And people are wondering how it’s possible if the messianic era is actually happening, if this happened to the Jews. Here’s what I answer.
There are many times in Israeli history where things didn’t go in a straight path. In 2005, Israel had Gaza, and then 8,500 Jews were removed from Gaza and Gush Katif.
And the RZ world was torn asunder and said, i don’t understand, maybe this isn’t the beginning of the messianic era. And I don’t know. I’m not Nostradamus, I can’t predict anything, but I know that the story of the Jewish people has always had ups and downs. It’s not a story that we were at the bottom, and now we’re at the top, or we’re at the top and now we’re at the bottom. If you’re part of the jewish story, you know it goes up and down, up and down. And what we need is young Jews, you guys, to be leading, and to be deciding, to be ahead of the curve on, is to say guys, there are going to be ups and downs, and that’s okay. But if you think the story of the Jewish people is just going up, then you’re living in the wrong story. It’s going to be up and down, and i don;’t know what the future holds, but when the jewish people have solidarity, I deeply believe we’re on to something.
But i dpn’t think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the thing tearing Jews apart. I think the nunber one challenge to the Jews, israelis, is not israelis versus Palestinians, but Jews versus Jews. And when we figure out how to solve this problem, charlie, we’ll be in a good place.
Caleb, what do you got for me?
Caleb: Hi, I’m Caleb.
Noam: Yeah you are. Yeah, okay.
Caleb: People have a lot of different opinions on the best way to respond to antisemitism. Some people would say you should take action and fight back, and others would say you should stay true to Jewish beliefs and just not fight back. I was wondering what advice you’d give to teenagers, when facing antisemitism, what’s the best action to take?
Noam: Caleb, that’s awesome. The question is, should we be fighting antisemitism. Is that what we should be spending our time doing? Listen, I have a few thoughts on that. You know whose problem antisemitism is? Non-Jews. Non-Jews are the ones who have to solve antisemitism, not Jews. This is a problem that non-Jews have. Jews don’t suffer from antisemitism, non-Jews suffer from antisemitism.
And the way i think about this is psychological. There’s something called internal locus of control and external locus of control. Caleb, you play ball? If you lose a game, do you blame the refs?
Caleb: No.
Noam: If you’re the type of player who’s playing the game, and you blame the refs, then you’re never going to go far. Because that’s called having an external locus of control.
An internal locus of control is someone says, how am I going to fix my problems? How am I going to fight for myself? I’m not going to blame the refs. If i took a jumper and missed it, i’m not going to blame the guy who didn’t set a good screen. I missed the shot.
The Jews have this major problem right now, we’re spending way too much time fighting something out of our control, we have to instead spend our time building Jewish identity. Learn Jewish history. Every single Jews. But if you’re fighting people with ridiculous world views, that will always be a challenge.
I wrote this down…We all want to convince people of things, but there’s something called the spectrum of allies. There are five different perspectives on allies, I’ll read them to you. There’s active allies, passive allies, people who are neutral, there’s passive opponents and active opponents. If you want to convince people of something, it’s not the active opponent that you’re going to be able to change their mind. It’s not even the passive opponent that you’re going to be able to change their mind. It’s not even the neutral opponent. You know whose mind you could change? Not just the active ally, but the passive ally.
We have so many passive people who care about the Jews, but don’t understand that they’re just passive right now. And there are so many passive Jews who are not doing anything about their Judaism. So instead of trying to convince the antisemite, let’s get those passive allies to care about the Jewish story. Let’s get the active allies to be activated a little more. Let’s get the neutral people, undecided voters, to be caring.
That’s what we gotta be much more. And the Jewish world has to stop spending our figting dollars to fight antisemitism. Yes, it’s important. But more important, in my opinion, is making sure that we find passive allies who could be fighting for the Jewish people, neutral people, undecided voters, get them to be part of the Jewish story, and making sure that every single young Jewish people knows their story. If we could do that I think we could do something.
Do you agree or disagree? Agree Agree. Agree or disagree? Let me see, agree or disagree? Agree or disagree? Okay, any of you have any other hard questions.
Last last one.
Can you love Israel and still have hard questions? Do you have any hard questions about Israel?
Noam: Can you love Israel and have the answer for me yes. One of the things I want all of you to loving Israel does not mean blindly supporting and loving every single thing Israel does. But it means being in the game, being in the story.
My favorite story that I love telling is the story from the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and I’ll share it until I’m blue in the face.
There was a bar mitzvah boy whose father took him to see the Lubavitcher Rebbe. The rebbe tries to make conversation with him. He asked him, what are your interests? And he says I’m interested in baseball.
Lubavitcher Rebbe says, Have you been to a game? Kid says, Yeah, I was actually just at a game with my dad.
Lubavitcher Rebbe says, how was the game? The kid says actually it was horrible. Lubavitcher Rebbe says, what happened? Actually, the Dodgers they were in Brooklyn at the time, I believe, he goes, The Dodgers were losing 9-1 so we left in the 7th inning.
Lubavitcher Rebbe goes, I don’t understand. The kid’s like, Yeah, it was a horrible game. So we left.
Lubavitcher Rebbe looks at this kid and goes, did the players leave the game also? The kid laughs, Rebbe, Rebbe, that’s so ridiculous. They’re playing. They can’t leave. And he says, the Rebbe looks at this 13-year-old boy says, This is what it means to be Jewish. What it means to be Jewish is that no matter what, you are a player in the game, you’re not a fan in the stands and that you’re playing in it. And I think about this all the time on as it relates to hard questions about israel. Of course, if you’re a thinking person, you should have hard questions about Israel. Of course you should. That’s a normal thing. But the hardest question I think Israel faces right now with regard to the wars that it’s facing with Iraq and Lebanon and the West the number one challenge that Israel faces, in my opinion, is how does Israel remain a secure Jewish state, while remaining deeply moral and ethical while also fighting against the people who do not follow standards of war. How do you do that? Can you be deeply care so much about your security and fight against people who are following those same rules? That’s a hard question. I think about it all the time.
Israelis in this room, going to the Israeli army, is this a question that you guys think about? Is this a question you think about? Yeah. American Jews who are not part of the Israeli army, I think this is a question we have to be thinking about on behalf of Israel as well. That’s what I think. How can we make that happen?
Noam: Okay, so. First of all, give a round of applause to these six amazing campers and staff members.
Okay, we’re gonna go around one word. Give me one word, a quick one word that captures what we’re taking from tonight. Anyone? And be loud though.
Meaningful.
Honest.
Understanding.
Inspiring.
Important to have conversations.
Honest.
Proud.
Knowledgeable.
Truthful.
Informative.
Noam: Okay, thank you, Camp Lavi. Thank you guys.