Noam: Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal: I’m Mijal.
Noam: And I’m Noam and this podcast is our way of trying to unpack those really big questions being asked by Jewish people, by non-Jewish people, about the Jewish story, about the Jewish people, about the Jewish state, often about Judaism.
Mijal: about the Jewish city.
Noam: About the Jewish city. Today’s gonna be about a very important Jewish city, which I wanna get into in a little bit. We don’t have it all figured out, but we try to learn everything together, to wonder together.
And as we say every week, we love hearing from you, so shoot us a note. Email us with questions, suggestions, feedback, ruminations, thoughts at WonderingJews@unpacked.media. That’s WonderingJews@unpacked.media.
All right, Mijal, you just said it before I was even going to go directly into it, but let’s talk about the most famous Jewish city in the world.
Mijal: More than Jerusalem?
Noam: There’s Jerusalem, there’s Tel Aviv, and then there’s New York City. I think New York City or Tel Aviv, one of them is the most populous Jewish city in the world.
Mijal: Yep. New York City.
Noam: So New York City is the most populous. Okay, let me set the stage. Queens Assemblymember, Zoran Mamdani, that’s M-A-M-D-A-N-I, if anyone’s keeping up with the TikTok trends, a 33-year-old Democratic Socialist, he surged way past former governor Andrew Cuomo to win the New York City Democratic mayoral primary. At the end of it, it was over 12 points, I believe.
And he ran on a platform of rent freezes, of free childcare, of fare free buses, which would be awesome by the way for me, like when I’m in Manhattan, I love just being able to–
Mijal: You take buses?
Noam: I do.
Mijal: Really?
Noam: I’m not telling you where my in-laws live, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I take buses, I take subways, and a $30 minimum wage by 2030. Why was it surprising that I take buses?
Mijal: I don’t know, I only take subways.
Noam: Okay. Well, it depends on where you are. If you’re on fifth, then it’s easier, just a note to everyone, you don’t have to go all the way to Lexington. Anyway, so that’s not what we’re talking about right now. Maybe it is, but we’ll get there.
Let me set the stage a little bit. Mamdani is famous among Jewish voters for many different reasons. And let me state a few of them. One is, they were alarmed, Jewish voters in New York City, by Mamdani’s history of anti-Israel activism. Right. He, as far as I know, he co-founded Students for Justice in Palestine at his college. He famously, and I watched this on, I think it was, what was it? Meet the Press. I saw this on Meet the Press. He refused to denounce, to condemn the slogan, globalize it intifada, which to many Jews and many people across the world is a very clear call to violence. And Jewish communal leaders have been warning that his past calls for Netanyahu’s arrest and his refusal to affirm Israel as a Jewish state, right? He believes that Israel has a right to exist as a democratic state, but never as a Jewish state. So that’s been really troubling to people. And from what I have seen, there’s been fears stoked amongst many, many, many Jewish people who are already so anxious about the rising antisemitism in New York City. There’s one democratic strategist who bluntly put it, if Mamdani wins, some Jewish residents will move out of the state, period.
So I want to pause right now. You are a New Yorker. I live in South Florida. This is your home. And I want to check the pulse right now and check your pulse. How have you been living in this context? What’s your feeling?
Mijal: Yeah, so you’re speaking to me now when I’m when I’m like in the calm and ready to fight stage. But I will say as the votes were coming in, you know, and many of us were nervous this was going to happen. So like in theory, it wasn’t a surprise. But I I was walking around with the kind of physical dread that I haven’t had in a very long time, like literally feeling like physically ill, for about three or four days and just feeling a certain sense of anxiety and fear. And I know I’m not the only one, like the amount of friends, you know, texting, WhatsApping, calling.
Let me name something here, though, Noam, because and this is part of the conversation. I have some friends, some former friends in the progressive left, some students as well. And some of them have like reached out to me and they were like, Mijal, don’t freak out so much. And the funny thing is that all of the things that they told me not to freak out about are things that I wasn’t freaked out about.
Noam: Like what?
Mijal: They’re like, he’s not going to pass anti-Jewish things or like remove police from synagogues or whatever. And I’m like, that’s not where I was going.
Noam: Right.
Mijal: Like my fear is different. So, you mentioned some of the reasons people are concerned, but I, and this is not going to be just a conversation about what’s scary, but I do want to kind of like name the stakes for me.
Noam: And before you do this, like this is not a political podcast. So I want to understand why this political moment is deeply influencing you, like as a person and as a leader.
Mijal: Yeah, and as a Jew. Yeah, well, there’s I want to just add two things to what you were saying. One of them, one layer of concern is that for me, Mamdani is almost like a non-threatening front to a coalition that I find incredibly threatening. What I mean to say is that he’s, if you look at him, he’s very charismatic, he’s affable, he presents very well. Even when he refuses to denounce the intifada, he does so in essay paragraphs to try to explain why he’s not antisemitic. But his coalition, the DSA, Democratic Socialists of America, Within Our Lifetime, a lot of the activists that help prop him up and that are welcomed in his coalition are the activists that have torn down posters. Are the activists that have physically harassed students of mine on campus. Are the activists that have screamed at me and my children when we have walked down Washington Square Park holding hostage posters. Are the activists that say Zionists are not welcome here. So there’s something about his coalition that I find very, very threatening.
My fear is not for what he’s going to do to Israel. It’s not that I’m like, I just want my kids and I to be, to be safe and my community to be safe.
Noam: Right.
Mijal: The second thing, the reason the stakes feel high, Noam, the place that my brain has been going in terms of analyzing this is that it seems to me that this could, it’s not, know, there’s nothing here that’s a destiny. I have to fight, I’m ready to fight it, okay? But this could become the trajectory of the Democratic Party. And it could become the kind of like the most extreme elements of it taking over, and and very quickly a lot of establishment Democrats, by the way, fell into step and from where i’m sitting what i’m concerned about is looking at a political moment in America that’s why from this not political because i’m seeing this in the right and the left in which extreme elements from both parties are bending the knee to populist movements and kind of you know at being okay with statements that they would never have been okay with 10 years ago, five years ago, whatever that is. This goes beyond, you know, wanting to have a Zionist mayor for like a Jewish city. There’s like other things that play here.
Noam: Right, people can make the argument, and I’ve heard people ask this question, like, why talk about the New York City mayor? Why does that matter? You guys have a podcast that’s not New York-centric, it’s for the world, so why are we talking about New York City?
Mijal: Because New York City is the financial capital of America and the world and it’s the culture. It’s the beating heart of so much of Western civilization and American civilization.
Noam: Right, and it’s being spoken about by so many people. Speaking of what you’re talking about, there’s Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Tucker Carlson were fawning over Zohran Mamdani. Horseshoe Theory, I that one. Yeah, that Horseshoe Theory, I think is so interesting when you see it in action. you see Marjorie Taylor…
Mijal You find that interesting, that’s the word.
Noam: Well, maybe the word is, maybe you’re right. Maybe the word isn’t interesting. It’s scary to see it in action. And then what’s even, I think it is fascinating though. I do think it’s maybe interesting, fascinating. Maybe I’m being too descriptive here. When I wonder, why do people not see that? How do you not see when Zohran Mamdani and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson are on the same page that there’s something going, there’s something off here. Like, how do people not see that?
Mijal: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think one layer, I think that Mamdani specifically presents very well. My assessment that I’m not the only one is that most of his supporters are not there because of his Israel-Palestine politics, which is good in my book.
Noam: Correct.
Mijal: Yeah, but another thing is, and this is not necessarily about the regular person listening to, to the news, but I’m talking about kind of like the establishment and leadership. Part of what we have seen, and this is again my diagnosis, I don’t have to agree, but part of what we have seen in America and in the political system and in so many democracies in the past decade and a half is an absolute inability to stand up to populist success. And again, just to make this more complicated, those who have stood up have very often become irrelevant in their parties. So there is this tortured moment right now of constant calculus of what do I do? Right? I go with this? Do I fight this? It’s a hard moment to be a moderate centrist who believes in complexity when slogans and populism are on the rise.
And again, my understanding of Mamdani is that it’s a similar populism as Trump’s, except Trump’s populism is based on like threats and negativity. And Mamdani’s populism has been a very like, again, you see my own bias here, but like positive pie in the sky. You know what I mean? Everybody will have everything perfect.
Noam: Hopeful. So there’s populism driven by hope and populism driven by fear.
Mijal: And that’s one way of saying it. But yeah, I would argue again, like part of what I’m arguing is that his coalition is one that doesn’t have that. They’re actually very toxic and divisive and it’s a front to that. But that’s my interpretation.
Noam: Okay, so this is now the situation. I was just in New York the past few days and there was a chill in the air and it wasn’t the weather. The weather was humid. It was gross. It was really muggy. But there was a chill. A lot of the people that I was with, there was a fear. One person after spending time with them emailed me after. They said that they feel more scared now than they did after 9/11.
Mijal: Yeah, can see that.
Noam: So I wanna know what, what has the Jewish community in New York City, what are some of the mistakes that have been made? Where did things go off the rail to get to this moment?
Mijal: Yeah, well, let me first dispel the myth that Jews control everything. So it’s not like it was totally up to us to decide who was going to win this primary. We did not engineer almost a campaign. did not. YAnd let me also just name very clearly that it’s not just Jews who are appalled right now.
Noam: Hmm, okay. There you have it. Okay. Myth buster, myth buster.
Mijal: Actually, if you look at the numbers, especially Black and Brown New Yorkers who do not have a college degree voted against Mamdani. They do not want him. His coalition was mainly, not only, but mainly white college educated progressives. So Jews are not the only group, and I would say just with a connection to Israel, because there’s also the Jews who supported him, Jews are not the only group threatened and upset right now. And Jews are not the only group that kind of, let’s just say like messed up in kind of like not working hard enough to prevent this to happen.
So just naming that like loud and clear. Having said that, what allowed this to happen from our end and how can we fix things? And I a hundred percent think that this was a wake-up call to the Jewish community in New York and in other places.
Let me name some of the mistakes that I think we’ve done one and I I’m gonna write about all of this because like there when things are on my brain I need to get them out. Like I’m share them right now in a way that is very immediate But I know I need to more time kind of like fleshing this out, but I’m gonna name three mistakes.
Noam: Please. Yeah. Let’s go.
Mijal: Okay. One of them, and let me explain myself, is that we have. We have allowed ourselves to speak as a special interest group. I’m going to explain what I mean by that. We have allowed ourselves to behave in a way that takes on identity politics very seriously in the way we present ourselves. By this, I mean the following. It is a huge mistake that Jewish leaders and influencers are out there speaking about antisemitism as a way to build coalitions and alliances with others. It is a huge mistake that we’re out there speaking about Israel as we’re trying to build alliances with others.
Let me say this differently, Noam. Whether I like it or not, we live at a time in which too many people think that someone who doesn’t want to denounce globalized intifada is totally fine and is not an antisemite. That is a fact of the world around us, which means that for us to get out there and say this is antisemitic, whatever it is, it’s actually not making a difference.
And in many ways it is playing into antisemitic stereotypes that people have about Jews being entitled and thinking they’re special and like feeling victims even as they have power. Now, just to be like super, super, super clear, I’m not saying don’t care about antisemitism. saying, I’m not saying don’t fight it. I’m not saying give up on Israel. Not saying any of that. Okay. Have your commitments and have them push you, but be politically strategic and smart. We have forgotten the lessons of the civil rights movement.The civil rights movement, the reason that it was so successful is that it was able to galvanize Americans from different groups and use common language. So we need to stop doing what I’m calling like just like therapy of outrage, of just speaking about our fears, because the only way for us to move ahead right now in New York City and in other places is if we’re able to have common language with other groups.
So for me, it’s very clear. We should be speaking about public safety, not antisemitism. We should be speaking about hate crimes. We should not be speaking about Israel as something we want our mayor to care about because frankly, we need Israel to be less of a central thing, right? In American politics, the way things are going. So none of this implies lessening of a commitment. It’s just that we are being politically stupid. Sorry for speaking in this way.
Noam: You said the S word, you said the S word. I’m okay with that on the podcast.
Mijal: But I want to say one more thing here. Pre October 7th, many Jewish groups and people had given up on Jewish interests and had been only like universalist. You know what I mean? Like we are here with our Jewish values to serve others who are more vulnerable. Post October 7th, many of us looked at that and said that was wrong. We cannot put away our Jewish interests. But even as we hold on to our community’s interests, we should not then adopt, you know what I mean? Like a communication strategy that doesn’t understand that we live in a diverse city and there’s nothing dishonest about speaking in a way that is more inclusive of other communities’ concerns. So that’s like one major re-pivot that we have to do and we have to do it yesterday.
Noam: Agreed. Number two.
Mijal: Number two, we do not have street organizing game. I don’t even know that’s the right language, ok. Because, because of the way that American Jewish life has been in the last few decades and the way that politics have been and like, know, you know, establishment politics having been like on the ascendance for so long until like the past, the rise of populism. We have not developed a political strategy that has a street game.
Noam: I like it.
Mijal: We Jews have mostly been involved in writing op-eds, in trying to influence elected officials, in donating to campaigns, in doing the kind of organizing that does not demand time on the streets. There is no way to win this unless we change our culture and our mindset. And I’m telling you, it is a huge change. Most Jews in my circles have never done the kind of canvassing, I haven’t been involved in this way. if we actually care about this, we are gonna need to give what is actually most precious to many of us, which is time.
Noam: time.
Mijal: And go in the streets and do things. And like, there’s no shortcut to this.
Noam: Has the Jewish community become, is it laziness? Has it been fooled into thinking that things are so good that this stuff isn’t necessary, it’s something that the Jews used to have to do? What is it?
Mijal: It’s not laziness because I am so thrilled that people that I know, like that they are actually like building careers and pursuing pursuits. Sorry, I’m going to speak a little bit sharply. There’s something about the activist lifestyle that I find deeply unhealthy. So in many ways I am very happy that so many people around me are like normies that are not on Twitter all day long and that are not obsessed with politics. But, but that meant that we, we have been caught by surprise and we need a paradigm shift and we need to be ready to pay the price for it. Like we need to. So that’s number two, like organizing, organizing, organizing.
Noam: Yep, and three.
Mijal: Number three, we need to revitalize Jewish life for young Jews. There is a tremendous amount of investment of Jews on campus. Okay. But when you look at the population of young Jews, post campus, okay. And I’m telling you as somebody who leads a community for young Jews and somebody who’s been talking to a lot of people about different forms of support that exists for this kind of community, especially if it’s for liberal Jews who are connected to Israel, there is a dearth of support with this kind of communalized and like Mamdani supporters, about 50% of them, if I remember correctly, were ages 18 to 49. But that means this is our generation’s fight. Our generation’s fight. And what can I need? And this is not just a political fight, it’s a spiritual fight, it’s an intellectual fight. It’s a fight. So we need, again, a whole reboot there.
Noam: Yeah, was younger. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.
Mijal: Let me just say one more thing. I know we don’t have so much time, but I am not, I mentioned that I had a couple of days of dread and of fear. Okay? I needed that. I think some of us need that. needed to mourn actually. And now I’m saying this as a PSA to anyone who’s listening. Our job is not to despair. It’s to organize. We have faced as Jews, you know, like if our great grandparents heard of our struggles, they would, you know, they would thank God for the struggles that we have right now.
Noam: I hear you, but I have one more question to you. My brother Hanan, who you know pretty well, years ago, he described the years like between like 22 to 30 as the Odyssey years. And I love that terminology, the Odyssey years, because those are the years that you’re searching, you’re kind of untethered, you’re by yourself, you could become that activist, but then that activism needs to be harnessed, it needs to be channeled, and especially from a Jewish perspective, to have that revitalization, and there’s work to be done to have deep Jewish connection and Jewish affiliation and Jewish meaning.
But Mijal, what would you say to the fact that, about the fact that there are a number of young Jewish people who are supportive of Mamdani? Like, what would you say to that and to them?
Mijal: I mean, I know a lot of them, so it’s not like it’s a foreign to me.
Noam: Right, so then, so, and some of our audience, so what do you say to them? Like, what’s your take on that right now?
Mijal: Listen, and again, we are all human here. It’s hard, right? It’s hard for me.And I do see a difference between public figures and non-public figures, but who are very openly, I think, advocating for Mamdani or diminishing the fears that we have.
I find it very condescending to those attempts to minimize the fears. I’m like, you could disagree with me, but don’t like, you know, this is not hyperbole. So I think with them, I think that they are, I’m trying and I get them saying I’m trying because I’m human. So like, you know, none of us is perfect.
Noam: Right. This is not hysteria.
Mijal: And we are driven by emotions and I have, you know, have concerns for the safety of my family and my communities. So it’s, it’s not always easy to be generous when you’re feeling like when you’re feeling on the defensive and I’m just owning that I’m owning that right now. I don’t think everyone who voted for him is bad or evil or like he’s anti-Jewish. That would be that to me, that doesn’t make any sense.
Noam: Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.
Mijal: And it’s not, it’s not what I see around me. And I think many people, honestly, think again, I think many of his supporters are deeply naive. And I think that they don’t realize that they don’t realize what it means to have a coalition that had like a rally, like a DSA rally, like October 8th was it in Times Square? I’m like, they are not owning the fact that that is the coalition. They’re not owning that.
Now they are, many of them are saying he’s moderating this, that. And I say this to sometimes when I have arguments with folks on the right about this, what I think are the scary parts of MAGA. I’m like, I pray that I am wrong. Like, let me, let me be the first to like, you know what I’m saying? Like I would be so joyful if you are right and I am wrong. And, and, and I will not let that stop me from. So, so again, to those people, I think that they’re naive.
And I think that that if they think that they have a responsibility like you know what get him to say that he will not tolerate incitement to violence. Get him to say openly that he will ensure the safety of anti Zionist and Zionist Jews. If let let them activate for that let them advocate to make sure that the people who say, Zionists are not welcome here, are not the ones running, you know, Gracie mansion. Let them do their work. Sorry, Noam, it’s like, you’re in South Florida. You’re in the place where real estate prices have just shot up because everyone wants to, in my circles, wants to move there. So enjoy Florida.
Noam:. If anybody is looking to buy a house in South Florida do let me know and I will connect you to connect you to. Yeah sure.
Mijal: Really? Can you get a cut from this now? What percentage? You weren’t, that wasn’t the plan? my gosh.
Noam: I wish I was good like that. I didn’t even think of that, Mijal, I wasn’t the plan.
Mijal: Or stay in New York with me and fight.
Noam: Okay. Fine. All right. Listen.
Wondering Jews is a production of Unpacked, a brand of OpenDor Media. Today’s episode was hosted by me, Noam Weissman.
Mijal: And me, Mijal Bitton.
Noam: The team for this episode includes Rob Pera, Rivky Stern, Ari Schlacht, and Ryan Rabinowitz. As always, we’d love to hear what this conversation sparked for you. If you have disagreements, if you have agreements, if you have thoughts that we did not consider, shoot us a note, be in touch with us, email us at WonderingJews@unpacked.media. Again, WonderingJews@unpacked.media. Of course, find us on social at WonderingJews. Thanks so much, Mijal. See you next week.
Mijal: Thanks a lot.