Samer Sinijlawi:
Israel could be apartheid, depends on its intention, and Israel could not be implementing apartheid according to its intention. What do Israelis intend to do with millions of Palestinians? There is a sense of urgency. I need to have this feeling of belonging. The Israelis need to imagine themselves as part of the Middle East.
Nobody has imagined that the 7th of October has happened. Nobody could imagine that Gaza could be erased from the map. It has happened. It worries me what could be the next earthquake. We need to prevent it and I think we can do it.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Samer Sinijlawi is a name you should know. A rapidly rising Palestinian peace activist from East Jerusalem. He’s challenging Mahmoud Abbas in the coming elections, if they happen, and might well be a future leader of the Palestinian people. Samer spent five years in Israeli prison as a teenager. After October 7th, he went to the Gaza border to condemn Hamas. Later, he visited the Bibas family Shiva and asked forgiveness on behalf of his people. He’s an extraordinary person with some extraordinary opinions and ideas.
But above all, he’s a pragmatist. I came into this conversation expecting to argue about a word. Samer pushed me toward a much bigger discussion. This is one of the most illuminating conversations I’ve ever had about the Israeli Palestinian question. This is Borderlines. Samer Sinijlawi.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Wa alaikum salam. Good morning.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Good morning. Welcome to Borderlines with That Semite. Thank you for coming to the show.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Thank you for inviting me.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What keeps you up at night about the Palestinian people?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, this is a very serious question. think is hope. How can we bring back hope? It’s very complicated. It looks simple, but it is very complicated because I think being a Palestinian politician who really does not sleep lots of nights, who really has a fire in the chest, wants to do something.
You realize that to answer these questions, you cannot do it only focusing on the Palestinian side of it. You need to do it in parallel things that needs to happen on the other side. So you have double responsibilities.
It is a naive and silly and simple conflict because it is all about two words, security at one side, at the Israeli side, freedom at the other side, at the Palestinian side. And there is tens of scenarios where you can achieve a formula of 100 % security, 100 % freedom.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So it sounds to me like solving the conflict is the issue that keeps you up at night about the Palestinian people. But before we get into that, tell me in a few sentences, who are you, where do you come from, and what do you do today?
Samer Sinijlawi:
I am a Palestinian that was born 54 years ago in the old city of Jerusalem.
I am a Muslim that was born in the Jewish quarter, but I went to a Christian school in the Christian quarter.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
And by the way, I come from a Jewish family that lived in what is today the Muslim quarter of the old city.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, we have really a common history, strong common history. And I think this history is more a history of coexistence than it is a history of conflict. Because something went wrong only for the last 100 years. Before that, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians lived here in this corner of the world for thousands of years in a very co-existent way.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Not always. Not always, but often.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, we never fought each other. We always fought together invaders who came from outside, the Crusaders, whatever. We can look at that history, but not really against each other. It’s when the British and the Europeans started interfering in the last hundred years, something went wrong, and we can fix it. We can fix it.
You said that you come from a family that lived in the Jewish quarter. I will tell you something, fresh memory. Still, because I’ve heard that story from my grandfather in the early 20th century. His partner in the old city in the Muslim quarter was a Jewish businessman. They both started up a cloth shop.
That was before the incidents of 1929. I think they clicked the conflict we live in today.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
And just to be clear for the listener and viewer, nineteen twenty nine we’re talking about the nineteen twenty nine riots in which hundreds of Jews were slaughtered in Hebron, in Jerusalem, in Svat and in other places in the land. and this was around the status of the Temple Mount.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Yes. Well, you can always try to put a starting point for that conflict. It’s very complicated. But you know, this was a it was a very serious event. a turning point. That’s where we started feeling that we are in a conflict. Yet I’ll tell you something. During my childhood in the old city,
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
There were things before nineteen twenty.
Turning point.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Before the First Intifada, the First Intifada was the uprising of 1987, where massive protests and demonstrations, stones throwing erupted in all the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, and it continued for years until Oslo Accords happened in early 90s. So before the First Intifada, I didn’t realize there was a conflict. So seeing people going to mosques or synagogues or churches speaking Arabic, Hebrew or English, it was part of my identity.
when the first intifada erupted.
Something invaded me.
Suddenly it’s us and them.
They are in uniform, in gyps, we are in kofi’ah with stones. It invades you. And I became part of it. I started throwing stones, I started participating in demonstrations. It led for me to spend five years in Israeli jail at the age of 15 until 20 from 1988 until 1993. And by the way, there I have learned my Hebrew.
inside the Israeli jib.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Which I think a lot of people don’t really appreciate the fact that East Jerusalemite Palestinians, that despite the fact that they live in a city under one Jerusalem municipality, that many at least many of them do not speak Hebrew.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, I think here there is a lot of joint responsibility.
Because maybe one of the big questions that are still valid until today is that when Israel controlled the eastern part of the city in 1967, then it was annexed and became under Israeli sovereignty the United Eternal Capital of Israel, between brackets this is the way Israelis describe Jerusalem Israel did not realize that it’s keeping 40 % of the new United City as residents but not citizens. So the integration was not complete.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So can you explain that to me a little bit more? Because the narrative that I’m familiar with is that in nineteen sixty seven, Israel conquers or liberates, depending on the language you want to use, the city of Jerusalem, the eastern part of Jerusalem. And after that, grants all of the Palestinian Arab residents of the city permanent residency with the ability to apply for citizenship. and so when you say that they didn’t realize that, what what do you mean by that?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Why didn’t they grant citizenship on the spot? I mean, why does an Arab Palestinian born in Nazareth is automatically a citizen, while me, born in Jerusalem, 1972, five years after Israel controlled it. My son was born in 1998. Now he is 28 years.
Why didn’t the system grant automatic citizenship?
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I think it’s a valid question. I also think there’s another valid question why didn’t all of the Palestinians that were now under Israeli sovereignty, why didn’t they all apply for citizenship if they had the opportunity?
Samer Sinijlawi:
because forget about the old generation. I mean, why didn’t those who were adults in 1967 apply for citizenship? They were in a shock. didn’t understand what’s happening. They were part of Jordan, having Jordanian citizenship in a transit phase because we are Palestinians that thought, or a lot of forces forced us to be part of Jordan, we were still getting used to be part of Jordan, then Israel came. Okay. They were in shock. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t understand the language. Maybe nobody understood that he can apply for citizenship, blah, blah, blah. Now, those who were born, and this is my concern, you cannot really decide until you are 18 years old.
When you are 18 years old, an adult that can choose an option of what kind of citizenship you prefer to resort to, you got used that you are a Palestinian, that you are a resident, and then it is the complication of the application itself. You know, there is only one branch for the Ministry of Interior in East Jerusalem.
one branch. There is always a struggle to find an appointment. It is a very complicated process. The most serious checkpoint you need to pass to get citizenship is the security clearance, where then any unproper language in a post in Facebook could put a red X.
on your application, it’s not easy as it looks. It’s not like you just apply for a driving license. We apply for Israeli driving license, we get it. We apply for Israeli travel document, we get it because it is a procedure, normal. is a matter of hours and days. Citizenship is something very complicated. Up till now only 5%.
of those Palestinians who applied for got it. 5 % of the application was a success. I think this is a challenge more for Israel. I am a Palestinian that did not apply and I will not apply because for me it’s, my aspiration is to have a Palestinian state next to Israel.
where the Palestinian neighborhoods will be the capital of Palestine, the Jewish neighborhoods will be the capital of Israel. So this is what I believe in.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So I think that’s a great transition to what I really wanted to talk to you about today, with regards to Palestinians in Jerusalem, with regards to Palestinians in the West Bank. And I think that this reality is often described by many in t in the international community as apartheid. And so I want to try to understand with you whether or not that is the appropriate term, whether it’s driving us to the to s actually solving this conflict, or whether or not it’s actually doing more damage than it is something positive.
So just to kind of steel man to give like the best argument, to give the best argument for that position that a part that isn’t an appropriate word. Number one, we know that twenty, twenty-one percent of citizens of Israel are Arab citizens, the majority the vast majority of which are Muslim, and they have equal standing before the law. That’s not to dismiss in any way the discrimination that exists, both individual and systemic, within Israeli society, within Israel proper. But These are the type of problems that you have in in my view, in my point of view, between majority minority populations in basically every single nation state that exists. maybe it’s it’s aggravated in certain ways here, in which the ways in ways that it’s not in other places, but that being said, we’re still looking at a democratic reality within Israel proper. Before sitting down with Samer, I went into the streets of Israel to hear what Israelis think about the apartheid comparison. One of the most articulate voices I encountered was Samuel Hyde.
A South African Israeli who has not only written extensively about the post apartheid reality, but lived it. This is what he had to say. The main difference there is that between legally speaking, between apartheid South Africa and Israel Palestine is that Israel has not annexed those territories. It does not proclaim to have annexed those territories, it still considers them disputed in Israeli language. In other Israeli language occupied. If Israel, for example, let’s say were to annex that territory and make it extend Israel’s borders to include the West Bank and Judea and Samaria, and at that point not offer the Palestinians full equal rights as citizens within the state of Israel, that would then reasonably be considered an apartheid system. Because that is not the case, then we’re dealing with a military occupation because when you look at South Africa.
There was only one just outcome for the situation there, which was for the apartheid system to collapse, to be brought down, so that black people who were asking merely to be treated as equal citizens within the state, not a separate state, not a state that replaced that state, but was equal citizens within South Africa, could achieve that right. Now it’s the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Jerusalem, where I think that picture gets a little bit more muddied. And the argument that I often hear from many Israeli Jews is that apartheid is not an appropriate term to dis to define this, because if we look at apartheid South Africa, what we see there is one regime explicitly stating that it is one regime, one sovereignty, with the intention to divide people and give rights and citizenship.
based off of their race. Whereas what we have in Israel-Palestine, what we have in this land, is a conflict between two peoples. A war, multiple wars that were fought between two sides, and that what we have currently in the West Bank, and we can come back to East Jerusalem later, is a military occupation. And a military occupation ends when there’s a peace deal signed between the sides. And so what we have right now, it may be unjust, it may be wrong, it may be unethical, but It’s not apartheid, it’s an occupation that needs to be ended by an agreement. How do you respond to that argument?
Samer Sinijlawi:
I don’t know what is the exact definition of apartheid. Israel could be apartheid, depends on its intention, and Israel could not be implementing apartheid according to its intention. The question here.
What do Israelis intend to do with millions of Palestinians? Is it separation or annexation?
If the intention is annexation, then I think what’s happening is apartheid. If the intention is separation, then I can accept that it is a military regime that temporarily exists and it will go.
Let me tell you something before I go a little bit in depth in this.
I started understanding that this conflict is like a TV series.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Which one?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Well, it is like a TV series in a studio like this. Every episode is repeating the previous episode.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
No I’m saying which T V series?
So it’s not a very good T V series.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Every actor has a script and needs to stick to the script. We are prisoners of the narrative, of a story. Nobody is allowed to departure that story. That exit door from the studio is very dangerous, frightening us. We don’t want to depart it. So it’s very hard to find people who are ready to address difficult questions. Try to search for different answers. Everybody that tries to depart the narrative, the main narrative of both actors might be accused of disloyalty. Okay? So we stick with it. We don’t want to depart it. By the end of the day, we are not trying to find answers. We are trying to defend the story.
Even if it is a wrong story, coming back to the question, to the big question, what do Israelis and Palestinians want? Which past they want to resort to in this conflict? Do we want annexation or do we want separation?
I’ll answer to you what I think Palestinians would prefer.
And the most brilliant answer to this question came from my daughter, one of my daughters. By the way, I have nine kids. So I am a Palestinian Haredi. In terms of the number of family.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
You don’t exactly fit the you know, the physical profile of
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, in number of family in the number of kids. My daughter is in the early twenties. She’s very active in social media. But sticking to the story.
And I asked her, what do you prefer? One state reality, one state option or two state option?
She told me, well, daddy, you know what? You have lots, lots, lots of Israeli friends.
Ask them what they want. I’ll support the option they pick up. I’m ready for both. I’ll be happy for both.
I told her, well, it seems that after 7th of October, we can not guarantee there will be enough support for two-state option. Maybe they will prefer one-state.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
That’s what you said.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Yeah. But listen.
They insist it should be Jewish.
Would you accept this?” She said, daddy, if I’ll get citizenship, I will vote. If I go to Ben-Gurion airport, they will not lead me to a different line for security check. When I come to Ben-Gurion airport, I will not stay in that ugly room for three, four hours until they allow me to enter. If they will receive me with a smile, as quick as in one line as all the other citizens, if I will be able to apply for a job in Herzliya and be part of the start-up nation.
They can call it a Jewish state. They can call it a Buddhist state. I don’t care.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So what, what you’re getting to, what I’m hearing from you right now, is the intention. ‘Cause you talked earlier about the intention behind the Israeli people. What do the Israeli people, what does the Israeli state want to do with millions of Palestinians? That’s how you put it. And I think also what you’re referring to right now is what do the Palestinian people want? And I think that that is part of where the tension exists with this terminology of apartheid. Because I think we’ve seen in many places and any points throughout the history of this conflict that When Israelis have felt that there is an opportunity, as you said, to separate and to create two states, that the Israeli public has gone to the ballot box and voted to support prime ministers that were advocating for something like that. And as we know, it blew up in the faces of Israeli society, in particular with the second Intifada, and that’s a trauma that Israeli society is really carrying to this day. And many Israelis after October seventh are looking at the disengagement from Gaza and saying something very similar.
We withdrew, we gave them the opportunity to have some type of sovereignty there, and it blew up in our faces once again. And so I think that the conclusion that many in Israeli Jewish society have come to is that if we had the opportunity, if you really believed, with exclusion of of course some voices that are perhaps very dominant in the Israeli government right now, if we really believed that the Palestinians would accept a state, then we would do things in order to make that happen. But it seems more like and you know, I think Einat Wilf, if you’re familiar with her and her work She’s put it this way before, that we the Jews want a state and the Palestinians don’t want a state. They just want the Jews not to have a state in any part of this land. Does that resonate at all? Do you think that they’re what are they what is that position getting wrong?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Let me agree with you that we have missed lots of opportunities, including when Ehud Olmert offered Abbas almost everything we technically 99 % of what we want.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
And a framework for the right of return.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Well, there was symbolic implementation of right of return for a few tenths of thousands of refugees. I will come back to that. I’ll come back because this is very, very important. Very important issue because I think we Palestinians, now the Israelis need to choose between annexation or
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Come back to that.
Samer Sinijlawi:
separation. And we Palestinians, we need to choose between the two-step option or the right of return. We cannot get both. There is a lot of hard decisions that need to be done on both sides. That’s why I say, yes, we lost opportunities. We still did not develop very mature understanding to this conflict in a way that would enable us to think better.
and take better decisions. That’s why we were losing opportunities, including lack of leadership. Abbas is not a real leader.
What’s important is that we need now.
forget about that history. Who didn’t do the correct things? Why didn’t we miss opportunities? Who is more responsible? I think there is a clear responsibility. It depends on which point of history were exactly and how. Some of us was more responsible than others. I understand my responsibility as Palestinians that I need to prove to the Israelis.
that there is a partner they can trust, that it’s not correct that most of the Palestinians would like to throw the Israelis to the sea.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So you’re saying it’s
Samer Sinijlawi:
Most of the Palestinians believe that the Israelis would like to throw them to the sea. You can see now lots of our teenagers and youths are walking around the streets with a necklace of the full map.
But trust me, none of them is really working very hard to throw the other side of the sea. This is part of the confusion. This is part of the lack of understanding, lack of trust. This is part of the hard feelings that is filling our hearts. And we need to fix all this.
what we need to do now after these terrible three years of war and suffering and pain.
is to try to understand something. If we keep judging each other by our failures towards each other and not by our real intentions, that’s why anything is linked to the intention.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
And and I think that that’s where we really need to to drill down, right? Because we get if we’re talking about Israeli and Palestinian society in the nineties during the Oslo Accords and Camp David and you mentioned even the Olmert Plan, and to versus today, we’re talking about very different societies. And today, I see this, I go around the streets and I have conversations with everybody Israeli Jews, Palestinians, Druze, Bedouin, you name it. And I I very much agree that today, many of in particular the young people, And people that are my generation and younger are of a mind that it’s either us or them. I literally’ve heard it in both Arabic and in Hebrew, right? And and I think that that is a result of the deep trauma, the deep pain, the the reality of of watching their, you know, relatives and friends go off into war on the Israeli Israeli side and many of them not come back, or many of them even just going out to go shopping and getting murdered by a terrorist. And on the Palestinian side.
the reality in East Jerusalem, the reality in the West Bank. And so I want to ask you two things. Number one, I want you to explain what that reality is for Palestinians. and and also what we can do in order to change the intentions. Because I think right now the intention is that either either the the other side is going to leave or be controlled by us, dominated by us, or we are not going to survive. And I’m I’m hearing that rhetoric on both sides.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Yeah, well, that’s why because we are judging each other from the surface. On the surface, there is a very ugly picture. There is what we have done to 1,200 victims on the 7th of October on that day. And there is the 25,000 kids who lost their life in Gaza during the war, there is an inconvenient picture. It’s on the surface.
if we are able a little bit to dig down to see what is behind that service.
And I have done this. I went very deep inside the Israeli society. When you go very deep, you reach to a reservoir of joint humanity.
Nobody can say that the Palestinians are not human beings. Nobody can say that any of the Israelis is not a human being.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I asked Samer to describe the Palestinian experience in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, not Gaza. Not because Gaza and the Gaza experience isn’t central to this conflict, but because the apartheid debate almost always centers on the West Bank and East Jerusalem specifically, and that’s what Samer is familiar with. And as an Israeli, I can speak to the Israeli experience. I wanted Palestinians to speak for themselves. So I went to Bethlehem, into the Palestinian Authority, and asked people directly. This is what they told me.
Ali (Bethlehem resident):
My name is Ali, I live in Aida refugee camp. This is a refugee camp, all the people in the refugee camp are Palestinian from 1948 from Jerusalem village and I was born here in Bethlehem.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Have you ever left the refugee camp? Have you ever left Bethlehem?
Ali (Bethlehem resident):
I can go to Beit Lahem but this is very expensive and I don’t have a wall. I have a rent house in the refugee camp. Right now I can’t go outside the refugee camp.
Ayub Ali (Bethlehem resident):
My name is Ayub Ali. I’m 35 years old, single dad, living in Beit Lahem.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
So you’re not allowed to cross the wall?
Ayub Ali (Bethlehem resident):
No, we can’t even like walking, you need permission, and so you have to apply for this permission, but the permission doesn’t give you the right to drive or to stay. Only some like hospital permission, you know. But you know, like, the permission which is silly that they give it to me last time is from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. So if you miss the train or the bus and you’re like in Tel Aviv, they catch you at the checkpoint, so
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Did that happen to you?
Ayub Ali (Bethlehem resident):
I was lucky, yeah, they catch me in Tel Aviv but I was with my sons, it was too late after the permission but they told them it was the second time in my life there, you know, so I don’t know anything about the bus, casual, so they forgive me, so I can’t get permission, lucky me, I’m not on the blacklist anymore.
Sabrina Adil Ibrahim Hajasha (village near Bethlehem):
My name is Sabrina Adil Ibrahim Hajasha. I’m from a village near Bethlehem. First of all, we cannot reach Jerusalem and of course the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is very important in our religion, Islam.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What’s your hope for the future?
Sabrina Adil Ibrahim Hajasha (village near Bethlehem):
Freedom.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I really want to talk about this terminology of apartheid because it’s not just a word, right? It’s a word that is doing a lot of work. Polling has showed that like three quarters of Israeli Jews between the river and the sea say that there’s no apartheid in in the West Bank or anywhere. Three quarters of Palestinians between the river and the sea say that there is apartheid. And I think that that terminology is the story itself that many Palestinians are living in. This has been my experience with Palestinian colleagues and friends, that they see this as being essentially a colonial.
Foreign project like that existed in Algeria with the French, like that exists in South Africa with white South Africans, and that essentially there is only one, even while even though crimes can be committed by both sides, there is a power structure that exists that the conclusion is the destruction of that state. The the complete taking away of all power from the Israeli Jews, just like it was done to white South Africans and as it was done to the French in Algeria.
Which could end in exile of that population, the destruction of that population, or the complete political removal of that population as as essentially having any sovereignty. And and so I think what I’m hearing, and first of all, I agree. I think I just want to say very clearly, I see, number one, that Israel has more power here. That th that’s indisputable in my mind. and it’s something that I think is an incredible blessing in Jewish history because we’ve been powerless for so much of our history and and we know what happens to us when we don’t have power. At the same time I think power comes with incredible responsibility. And the day-to-day reality that I see in the West Bank and then to a lesser degree also in East Jerusalem is one in which I see immense injustice, discrimination, inequality, and I think that that has to be solved. But I think that this language of apartheid Is doing more damage to getting us to that solution than it is actually helping us. Something I kept coming back to throughout my street conversations with Israelis is how quickly the word apartheid shuts down dialogue, even with Israelis who acknowledge that something is deeply wrong in the West Bank. That dynamic was articulated most clearly by Celine Rouben, a Persian Jewish lawyer living in Israel, who described how she sees this language functioning less as a road toward a political solution and more as a propagandistic tool. This is what she had to say.
Samer Sinijlawi:
The way that I see it is it’s sort of like a diss to those who actually experience apartheid in South Africa to say and it completely minimizes their experience to say that there is an apartheid here in Israel and I really do think it’s a misappropriation of the term. For me the way that I see it I think it’s more important to talk about how and why this apartheid smear even came out to be and like when I look at these terms or when I hear these terms these trigger words that we always hear like genocide, apartheid, occupation, settlements, like all of these words, these empty trigger words, I think that it serves the purpose of causing more division, of dehumanizing Jews and delegitimizing the Jewish state as well.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Do you think that we need a different language in the way that we speak about this conflict, kind of taking us beyond a settler colonial paradigm or an apartheid paradigm?
Samer Sinijlawi:
I myself, I don’t use the A word, I don’t use the G word. Because I think coming to a conclusion whether they are valid or not depends on how this game ends.
If this game ends in a proper arrangement that satisfies both sides, then the intentions could show that they were not valid.
And there is a sense of urgency here.
I told you about the question I asked to my daughter. I told you what she answered, but she said something. Daddy, if they want to choose, they need to choose now. Because for me, I cannot continue to live in this two-floor states where I feel somebody is living in the master’s floor and the others are living in the servant’s floor. There is a feeling.
me as a Palestinian that up till now holds an Israeli travel document. I am not a citizen of any state.
Any human being in the world is entitled to be a citizen of at least one state.
So there is a sense of urgency. I need to have this feeling of belonging to a state. If it is not a Palestinian state, then it needs to be another state. But I need to be belonging to a state. I am a politician that wants to impact and affect the political system that decides the details of my life and my…
kids and the future of my kids. So in a way or another, it’s time to take decisions. And we need to create the environment. We have a responsibility. I say, when my daughter says they need to decide, I understand now that I have the obligation, the responsibility to create the conditions that enable them to decide.
Some of the lack of the decision on the other side is because they are confused, because they don’t trust us. So we need to start these first steps of change that will allow them to understand us better, that will allow them, you know, this looks very strange because when you speak this language to a Palestinian crowd, they say, now we are responsible.
to make them believe that they need to do something with us? Yes. Whether we like it or not.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
heard same argument from Israeli Jews every single time.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Okay, so somebody needs to start and because the sense of urgency on our side is more I mean Israel is paying a price of this conflict a very heavy price. It’s not convenience There are victims People are leaving their families in army for months and months now It is affecting the social fabric of the society But yet, Israel is a very strong country, very strong economy, OECD country, start up nation, people are having high income, have the sea, they go surfing, even during war, they travel, they have a passport that connects them with 160 countries without needing visa.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Look this is the reason why I would make the argument that the urgency is really in many in a different way on Israeli society. Because absolutely, Palestinian society is playing a much more a much higher price in terms of their lives in this conflict. In terms of the number of people that are that are losing their lives or being physically hurt. At the same time, Israel is in a position of power. We’re in a position of power in order for us to be able to change facts on the ground in ways that Palestinians are not able to. And I think that that that ability, which is not something that I take for granted, I think it was hard fought and hard achieved through a lot of blood and sacrifice. I think it also puts us in a position to recognize this historical moment. And this historical moment is one in which you could be trying to lead a popular Palestinian movement in East Jerusalem.
For everyone to try and apply for citizenship. Because as you mentioned, four hundred thousand Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem, of Jerusalem, only five percent of them have citizenship. But it’s also around less than a thousand of them every year that apply for citizenship. Why that is y is what you mentioned. The reason why you didn’t apply for citizenship is because you believe that East Jerusalem should be the capital of a Palestinian state, that you want to be a part of a Palestinian state. And so you’re in this moment
Samer Sinijlawi:
does not believe so.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Right. So th this is what I’m saying is that you’re you’re trying to say that this is really the last opportunity for Israeli society to even achieve if it wants a a two state solution. If not, and this could be coming, there could be a movement for four hundred thousand Palestinian citizens of East Jerusalem to apply for Israeli citizenship, and in that moment it’ll be a lot more difficult for the current reality to continue, which is approving only thirty four percent of those applications.
And if that was to extend to the West Bank, that would be even more complex, right? And so I think the reality is that is is this is what you’re saying, and feel free to push back, is that both Jewish people and Palestinians are not going anywhere. Or at least we shouldn’t want them to go anywhere. And if that is the case, then we need to figure out a way for both peoples to have self determination and equality in their homeland.
Samer Sinijlawi:
I am the only Palestinian with political profile that went to the envelope of Gaza after the 7th of October and condemned Hamas and what they have done on the 7th of October.
because I felt that this could save a moral collapse of my people. If somebody will come and say, no Palestinian has condemned, I can say there was one Palestinian who condemned.
And when I was there that day, was in Kfar Aza. Shejaiya was one kilometer away. I gave my back to Shejaiya. I’ve heard the bombs.
The earth was shaking. I saw the fire. I know what every bomb…
does.
and these are my people. cry every night when I see the footage. But on that moment, I wanted only to condemn what my people have done on the other side of the fence, because this is my moral responsibility. What’s happening there is not my moral responsibility. It’s somebody else’s moral responsibility, and I leave it to them.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Israeli society.
Samer Sinijlawi:
We need to stop lecturing each other.
If we want to deliver a message, we need to set an example. This is the best way you can touch the hearts of the other side and gain trust. Keeping lecturing each other will not make us move any way ahead.
And you know how strong was the story of the Bibas family. It was really very strong. I know its impact on the Israeli society. And I decided to go and visit the Sheva of the Bibas family and offer my condolences to Yarden Bibas and do something that not everybody has the moral courage in doing it.
ask for pardon on behalf of my people. And trust me, I’ve been in thousands of meetings, including with very far left wing Israelis, where you can easily agree on everything. But when you put on the table the issue of apologizing, asking for pardon, everybody pushes the brakes.
Maybe because apologizing is somehow could be interpreted as
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Weakness.
Samer Sinijlawi:
We not only weakness committing that I’ve done something wrong in this conflict. There is no mother Teresa. We both done lots of wrongdoings lots, but we are not here in in in the process of discovering who is more guilty. Nobody is guilty. Let’s put this aside. We’ve done what we have done. The question is Can any side just disappear? No. The last war is a proof that after three years of intensive war, after the 7th of October, what could be done?
I mean everybody has used the maximum violence, military option possible and we are still here. Seven million Jews and seven million Arabs on the same land. So we need to resort to something else. And I think now what we should focus on is not just to reconstruct.
to fix the damage in homes, whether in Gaza or in Otef Aza, on the northern borders with Lebanon. We need more to focus on fixing hearts, not only homes. The damage in the hearts is more severe.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I I couldn’t agree more and it look first I want to say that the this idea of being an example, right, and and being involved less than lecturing other people about where they’re wrong and instead doing as we say in Hebrew, a cheshbon nefesh, like really being introspective and and seeing the ways in which you could have done things better, I think that very much speaks to a r central pillar of Jewish identity, which is the this idea that we’re supposed to be an Or LaGoyim, right? That we’re supposed to be a light unto the nations. And how do you do that?
Not by going and lecturing people and telling them where they’re wrong, but actually being that model yourself. So I think that will resonate with a lot of people within the Jewish community. I also think that, you know, this idea of of focusing on crimes committed by the other side on us is very tempting. And I think that a lot of people fall victim to that. And I think it’s very natural, but it’s a product of, as you said, like the stories that we’re telling, right? What is the story that many people are telling themselves in Israeli society and Palestinian society and where is that pushing us?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Let me tell you.
I spoke about the story that locks us all together and does not allow us to depart a little bit that studio we are living in. Departing that studio will make Palestinians realize that there is historical links and rights for Jews in this land because it is a historical fact. They have been here.
we can find documentation on this in our holy book, Quran, the biggest chapter, Surah Al-Baqarah. The stories of Abraham. By the way, when you say Avraham Avinu, I feel it’s Avraham Avinu. When a Jew says, our father Abraham, it’s like a Palestinian saying, our father Abraham, okay? We just internally,
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Abraham our father, literally.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Every site feels that our it’s only us, but it’s both of us together. So the stories of Abraham, Moses, Joseph, all the prophets that lived in this land or are related to this land and to the Jewish history, it’s there in the Quran. We deny the historical links because we think this is the best way to protect our narrative.
But recognizing the historical rights of Jews does not mean that I don’t any rights because Jews, they have never been alone here. There was always others and these others are us. So that’s how changing a narrative from both sides will change this conflict from who belongs and who does not belong to a question of How do we both continue to belong?
Even the two-step option that I hope we can achieve one day needs to be a smart two-step option.
I explain this as follows. Historical links of Jews is more connected to the West Bank. The Palestinian collective memory is more linked to the cost. It’s Gaza, Asqalan, Ajdood, Jaffa, Haifa, Akka. The two state options gives us the West Bank, gives you the cost. But this is demographical fact.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Judea and Samaria, yeah.
Samer Sinijlawi:
most of the Palestinians live in West Bank Gaza, most of the Israelis live in the coast area.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Yeah, ironically our national stories are more connected to each other’s territory than the ones that we’re currently living in. Exactly.
Samer Sinijlawi:
A smart two-state solution should not disconnect anybody from anywhere. Okay? There is borders on the map. Everybody still can feel connected. I myself, I don’t want to any Jew lives under two-state solution.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
You don’t want to see any of you expelled. No.
Samer Sinijlawi:
I don’t want to see any you evacuated. I don’t want to see any solution that evacuates anybody.
Because if there are 20 % of the population of Israel as Arabs, why don’t we stay with 20 % of the population as Jewish? Where they live under our sovereignty, we are responsible on their security, but they have full freedom of movement, of worship, praying, of connecting to the holy sites, of…
We can create that model. If a Palestinian can afford buying an apartment on [street name unclear in audio] in Tel Aviv with 50 million shekels, just like any French or Italian who can buy that apartment, he can buy it and stay. But there are two states where one state is clear to be Jewish. Okay. I think.
If we need to choose between the right of return and the two-state solution, we will choose statehood and the two-state solution. If the Jewish people, most of them, will choose between a Jewish state on a limited area of the greater Israel or continuing to manage a situation where everybody is challenging your democracy.
You are facing a situation of apartheid and there is a continuing lack of security and bloodshed. What do they choose? They will choose the option of having a smaller but Jewish state with a lot of respect and engagement and integration in a region, changing Israel from being a villa in the jungle to a villa in a nice neighborhood that embraces it.
Now, do really Israelis want to annex? I doubt it. Today there is a very, very right-wing Israeli government. It’s ending its full four years there, and they didn’t do one step of annexation.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
If this show’s got you thinking, good. That’s the whole point. And it’s kind of what we do around here at Unpacked. Borderlines with That Semite is just one of the things we’re creating at Unpacked to help you dig into Israel, Jewish history, and identity through our YouTube videos, podcasts, socials, and articles the same way I try to. With real curiosity, real nuance, and no oversimplifying. So here’s where to go next. If you want to keep up with everything we make, subscribe to our newsletter, unpack.media slash join.
And you’ll get a weekly roundup of all the stuff we’re creating. That’s unpack.media slash join. See you there.
So I want I don’t drill down on that because I know a lot of people that are listening are probably thinking this right now. And that’s that, first of all, probably post October 7th, we’re seeing the largest number of Israeli Jews supporting, if not annexation, but at least the continued military control of the West Bank. Not because of the a deep d attachment to Judean Samaria so much, even though there’s an element of Israeli Jewish society, which certainly that is what’s primarily driving them.
But mostly for out of security concerns. And that’s tied to the fact that I agree that I have seen that despite the fact that it’s changing, the majority of Israeli Jews, when you give them those that option, that they will choose a smaller Jewish state over sovereignty over the entire land. Yet the point that you would the the set what you said with regards to Palestinian society, that if you have if they have to choose between the right of return and a two state solution and and statehood for them, that They would choose statehood. I think that many Israeli Jews in particular, but also many American Jews and Americans would say, but we haven’t seen that historically. Setting the history aside, because we can litigate the history forever, where do you see that now in Israel in Palestinian society?
Samer Sinijlawi:
The more you are close to the center of the conflict, the more on both sides we become realistic. The far you are from the center of the conflict, both we start living in La La Land.
If you ask now any Gazans, I can open my mobile now, give it to you, and I can ask you to choose randomly one of my contacts in Gaza. Randomly. We call him now. And I can tell him I am sitting now in front of Trump. And he asks you.
choose one request, he will make it happen. What’s maximum national aspirations? What do you want now from the most powerful man on earth? He will get it done.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
He says to him, Hakal Auda, right, the right of return, or Dal Palestinian Mustachilla, an independent Palestinian state, which one does he choose?
Samer Sinijlawi:
he will tell you a battle of water.
he will tell you I need a roof for my, I need to depart the tent. I need a roof and a bottle of water and some bread. This is his national aspiration. If you go to a Palestinian living in California.
and you tell him what’s your national aspiration, he will tell you from the river to the sea decolonizing of Israel. This is Lala land. He doesn’t know what this conflict. was in a debate with a guy that is active on the internet. He’s a voice of BDS, a Palestinian my age. He was born in Chicago. I was born in Jerusalem.
He went five years to Princeton. I went to Israeli jail. And he disqualified me to be a Palestinian because I say certain things that depart the story. He wants to be the one that issues the certificates who is the patriot Palestinian.
So these people live in La La Land. Don’t listen to these voices.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I couldn’t couldn’t you also argue though that this is just like an issue of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, that it’s not just a matter of national desires, but it’s more a question of basic needs. And once someone has their basic needs, right, once they feel like they have basic security, right, that there’s not bombs dropping on them or something of that nature, that they have water, that they have food, that then that’s when they really have the opportunity to to actually even think about collective questions or national questions.
The real question is in that moment, what do they choose? Do they choose the right of return or do they choose the two state solution? And by the way, I’m going with your binary, right? It could be that that binary is incorrect, right? That we’re we don’t need to be looking at it that way. But assuming that that is a binary, that there’s it’s either one or the other, right, what do you think that they choose? And and extend it to the Palestinian people in the West Bank.
Samer Sinijlawi:
I’ll give you an answer on behalf of both Israelis and Palestinians because sometimes I joke with my Israeli friends and I tell them, guys, I know you better than you know yourselves. I speak to all of you, right, center, left, you don’t speak to each other. I can speak on behalf of both now. Most Israelis don’t want annexation. They don’t want five million more Palestinians like me with blue ID.
who are traveling everywhere. They don’t want to see 50 % of each Al-Al flight Palestinian passengers. They don’t want to see the people from Sinjil and Anata queuing at [checkpoint name unclear in audio]. They want a Jewish state and they want to live in peace and they want security. And if they find a partner that can commit himself to these conditions from the Palestinian side, they will…
shake hands and do a deal. We need to create that partner and we need them to realize that he is an honest partner and then things can change. Most of the Palestinians would like to live peacefully next to Israel.
in the borders of the state.
that can be identified and a lie to Israel.
I sometimes ask some Palestinians a question. Why do think we are important as Palestinians? Have a thing happens in Gaza than it is headlines in New York Times? They give me some answers. The answer I tell them, trust me, we are not important. We are nothing. The Israelis are important. The Jewish question is important. We are lucky we became in conflict of them that we got the attention.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Darwish says this as well.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Darwish said this, I like two people in our history, Darwish and Edward Said. Most of my…
language is based on ideas that came from these two great people. Now imagine if we Palestinians change this relation from conflict to partnership, we will gain 100 times more, 1,000 times more. Both of us will get. When Israelis and Palestinians come in partnership facing the world, no doors will be closed in front of us. This is what The majority of Palestinians want, this is what the majority of Israelis want. We have a lack of leadership. I am now running a new political party called New Path, Masar Jadid, and we are offering that change. OK, so I’m trying to do that change on the Palestinian side. We could be one election on each side away from a historical exit from this conflict. If we fail, If we fail, we will be just waiting for the next earthquake. Nobody has imagined that the 7th of October could happen. Nobody could imagine that Gaza could be erased from the map. It has happened. It worries me what could be the next earthquake. We need to prevent it, and I think we can prevent it.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
I wanna try something different. I wanna ask quick questions and I need really quick answers. Okay? Apartheid. Yes or no.
Samer Sinijlawi:
depends on intentions.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Is the word helping or hurting the Palestinian cause?
Samer Sinijlawi:
The reality is more tough.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Do the Jewish people have the right to self determination in this land?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Definitely.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Can two people share this land?
Samer Sinijlawi:
Definitely.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What does the international community consistently get wrong about this conflict?
Samer Sinijlawi:
they don’t understand it and they don’t care about it. This conflict needs to be solved only by direct efforts between Israelis and Palestinians.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What does Palestinian leadership consistently get wrong?
Samer Sinijlawi:
There is no Palestinian leadership.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What does Israeli leadership consistently get wrong?
Samer Sinijlawi:
There is also a lack of leadership on the Israeli side. There are a lot of politicians, but I don’t see leaders.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
What do Israelis get right that Palestinians don’t acknowledge?
Samer Sinijlawi:
The lack of security, the fear is genuine. We think it’s propaganda, it is real.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
And what do Palestinians get right that Israelis don’t acknowledge?
Samer Sinijlawi:
our ability to coexist. The Palestinian people has the ability to coexist. Both people have the ability to coexist more than their leadership. Extreme voices that are loud on the Palestinian side that are calling for the elimination of Israel, it does not represent the majority.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
If you could say one thing to regular Israelis, not the leaders, about what Palestinian reality is today, what is that thing?
Samer Sinijlawi:
lack of human dignity.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
In a hundred years, how would you like this place to look?
Samer Sinijlawi:
I think it could be leading the whole world if we come together. The resources that we all have together, Jews and Muslims in this corner of the world, is huge. From Saudi Arabia to Tel Aviv to Egypt. I want to say that we need to start imagining peace.
The Israelis need to imagine themselves as part of the Middle East. Well, they do the UEFA football in Europe. They do the Eurovision. This does not mean that Israelis are Europeans. Israelis are Middle Eastern. You are part of this corner of the world. And I think this, there is an ability now, a possibility, strong possibility, a desire from everybody around us.
to integrate Israel. Let’s open the doors for Israel integration in the region. I can imagine when we become allies, the level of strength and influence we will possess that might change the world in a positive way, might change the lives of our citizens on both sides.
Let’s try to imagine this future. Let’s try to imagine a day when Israel will play football in Cairo and Abu Dhabi, not in Lisbon or Madrid. That Israel starts going to the Arab Idol, we will call it the Abrahamic Idol, and not to the Eurovision. And I see this very close. We are closer to that day. Maybe the war, the 7th of October, brought us closer and not distance us.
I believe we are very close.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Samer Sinijlawi, thank you for joining me today.
Samer Sinijlawi:
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yirmiyahu Danzig:
Okay, so that conversation took me somewhere I didn’t expect. And it’s true. Many Palestinians use the word apartheid to describe the reality they live every day. Checkpoints, military courts, restrictions on movement, residency without citizenship, and no meaningful say over the government that controls so much of their lives. Equally, for many Israelis, the word apartheid erases the history of this conflict. It ignores the wars, the terrorism, the security fears, and the fact that two peoples have real and deeply rooted claims to the same land.
But Samer gave me a new way of looking at this. He said the question ultimately comes down to intention and will only be settled by what comes next. Samer was born in Jerusalem. He pays Israeli taxes, but he cannot vote in national elections. He carries a residency document rather than a passport. He is not a citizen of Israel, Palestine, or Jordan. In the city Israel calls its eternal and united capital, he is technically stateless. That reality is real. The inequality is real. The lack of freedom, And political rights is real. The question is where is this going? If Israel generally sees the military control of the West Bank as temporary, if the goal is a negotiated agreement, Palestinian statehood, and an end to that control, if the obstacle truly is good faith negotiating partners on the other side, and a Palestini population willing to accept Israel is here to stay, then yes, these are necessary security measures. And none of this has anything to do with apartheid. If the goal is permanent Israeli rule over millions of Palestinians, Who will never receive citizenship, equal political rights, or a state of their own, then we have to confront the uncomfortable possibility that this is something else. Even then, of course, there is a fundamental difference between the West Bank and South Africa. This conflict grew out of two national movements, two peoples attached by their roots to the same land, repeated wars, and genuine security threats. That history matters. The word apartheid can also carry the assumption that Jewish self-determination itself is an illegitimate colonial project that must be dismantled.
I reject that completely. But winning the argument over that terrible word does not solve anything. The current direction should worry us. Talk of annexation and the rejection of Palestinian self-determination on any grounds by powerful members of the Israeli government make it harder to keep describing this as a temporary situation. A temporary situation cannot continue forever without becoming the system. What I found really refreshing and kind of groundbreaking is how Samer turned the question of intention back toward his own people. What does the Palestinian national movement intend?
Is its goal the Palestinian state alongside Israel? Is it prepared to recognize Jewish self-determination and accept that millions of Jews are here to stay? Or does the dream of return still carry the hope that Palestinian sovereignty will eventually replace Jewish sovereignty? Samer was unusually direct. That Israelis must choose between separation and annexation. The Palestinians must choose between statehood and the full right of return. That neither people can demand everything while expecting the other to accept nothing.
That was one of the most important parts of this conversation for me. So was the way Samer spoke about responsibility. He owned the wrong committed by his own side. He left the wrong committed by Israel for Israelis to confront. That takes real courage. And it raises an uncomfortable question for me. Are we willing to do the same? Palestinian leaders need to tell their people that Jews belong here, that Jewish fear is real, and that Jewish self determination is absolutely legitimate. That Israel isn’t going anywhere. Israeli leaders need to tell our people that Palestinian statelessness, humiliation, and lack of freedom cannot continue indefinitely, and that security cannot become a permanent excuse for denying another people a future. Both sides need leaders willing to say hard things to their people. Leaders who are prepared to lose support inside their own camp in order to build trust across the divide. Like Samer, I believe that two peoples with deep and legitimate connection to this land have to find a way to share it. What that looks like exactly, I’m less certain than I used to be. Something Samer said stayed with me.
Palestinians feel most connected to the coastal plain, to Jaffa, to Haifa, to the sea, and that Jews, particularly religious Jews, feel most connected to Judea and Samaria, to Hebron, to Bethlehem, to the hills. There’s something almost ironic about that. The geography of belonging doesn’t map neatly onto the geography of the conflict, so I don’t know exactly what the map looks like. I don’t know how Jerusalem gets resolved, or refugees, or security, but I know that the framework has to be honest about what both peoples actually feel.
not just what is politically convenient to offer. But I know the minimum. Jews need safety and security. Palestinians need self determination, freedom, and dignity. Neither people is leaving. Neither people have to disappear for the other to belong. The word apartheid may describe where this is heading if Israel chooses permanent rule without rights. It does not have to describe where we end up. Samer put it so beautifully, but so simply we’ve lost so many lives fighting over who belongs more. Maybe it’s time to ask: how do we both belong?
Borderlines with That Semite is a production of Unpacked, part of OpenDor Media. The show is sponsored by the Marcus Foundation. I’m your host, Yirmiyahu Danzig. Borderlines is produced by Paul Lequeskin, and our team includes Noam Sol Azuz, Simon Apfel, Jenny Falcon, Andrew Miller, Ari Schlacht, and Rifka Stern. Thanks for joining us.