This episode is sponsored by Jewish Lives, a prize-winning series of biographies from Yale University Press. To learn more about King David’s life, identity, and legacy, check out David: The Divided Heart by Rabbi David Wolpe at www.jewishlives.org. Use promo code DAVIDPOD to get 30% off.
Yael: From Unpacked, this is Jewish History Nerds, the podcast where we nerd out on awesome stories in Jewish history. I’m Yael Steiner.
Schwab: And I’m Jonathan Schwab, and we’re back today with the first of three special bonus episodes.
Yael: This is so exciting. I’ve never gotten to give people a promo code before.
Schwab: This is a collaboration with the Jewish Lives series. I’m very excited about it. We’ve used these books a lot. This past season, we relied on them — biographies — for the Albert Einstein episodes and the Trotsky episode.
Yael: For this week, I read one of their titles, David: A Divided Heart, written by Rabbi David Wolpe. I actually read the entire book through twice because, first of all, it was excellent and I really enjoyed it. And that’s not just me sucking up. It was beautifully written.
Schwab: Wow.
Yael: It was beautifully, beautifully written, and what impressed me is that I’d heard of Rabbi Wolpe — his reputation preceded him before I read this book. He is the former senior rabbi of Temple Sinai in Los Angeles. I’ve heard him speak and I’ve seen his social media presence, and he’s always seemed like such a good orator and pastoral rabbi. I was shocked to see that he also had this really literary touch while writing this book. So kudos.
Schwab: I believe we have a clip of Rabbi Wolpe talking about this book on the Jewish Lives podcast.
Yael: This is going to be a different kind of episode — because it’s the first time that we’re really delving into a biblical character. And it’s truly the first time that we’re talking about a human being who existed prior to Josephus.
Schwab: We usually look at things just from a historical perspective, and this is kind of a different take.
Yael: For those of you who have joined us midstream and weren’t around when we first started: the first episode we ever dropped was about Josephus, a Jewish historian in Rome who is largely considered to be the first “secular” Jewish historian — he writes about the travails and history of the Jewish people from what we consider a non-theological perspective. Before that, everything we know about Jewish history comes from the Hebrew Bible. Depending on your personal theological leanings, you might also take some historical guidance from the New Testament, the writings of other religions, the Apocrypha, certain books that were considered part of the Jewish biblical canon and never made it — like the book of the Maccabees.
Schwab: Judith, Tobit, Ecclesiasticus. I feel like I should know this list better.
Yael: You definitely know more about this than I do. But we’ve never delved into the fact that Jewish history starts with the narratives that we read in the Bible. Part of the reason we’ve never talked about it is because this podcast is not a theological endeavor. It’s about the history of a people that very much exists today. There aren’t really philosophical debates as to whether or not Jews exist. But there are philosophical debates as to whether the narratives of the Bible — the narratives of your founding document — are… truthful is a hard word to use.
Schwab: “Historical in the way we would define historical now” is the way I think about it. That was a major part of my Jewish education — a phrase I heard many times: the Torah, or the Bible, is not a history book. It’s not written with the intention of recounting history in the way we would recognize today.
Yael: But is it not a history book because it didn’t happen? Or is it not a history book because it wasn’t intended to teach us about the chronology and veracity of events — it was intended to teach us about the foundations of belief of a certain religion?
Schwab: I don’t want to get too controversial, but I was recently reading something about Greek mythology and the distinctions we’d draw now between mythological stories that are clearly not based in reality. The question was: did Greek people at the time actually believe that Zeus was sitting on top of Mount Olympus? And the author was like, that’s a very modern question. It doesn’t reflect how a Greek reader of the time would think.
Yael: And I think what makes this slightly easier for the two of us to discuss than it might be for others is that Judaism is famously not a religion that prioritizes faith. It’s an action- or inaction-based religion — almost a code of laws — and you can take the deism out of it entirely and still technically, by the letter of the law, be doing what a Jew is supposed to do. So I think for us, we’re able to have this conversation without coming to a conclusion about whether or not God split the sea by way of Moses — or whether there was a scientific or meteorological phenomenon that caused it — without having a theological crisis of faith. I do think this is a fascinating conversation, and maybe this is why I feel so passionately about this podcast. Being Jewish is not mainly about theology. For me, a lot of it is about peoplehood. I’m sure there’ll be people who write in, but I think one of the reasons Judaism has sustained itself is that you can question — and you can be a non-believer and still be a part of the Jewish people.
Schwab: Yeah. So historically — what are we talking about?
Yael: I don’t think it matters for our purposes today whether or not everything that the books of Prophets say about King David actually happened. We’re going to talk about who he was as a person, based on those sources and based on what other people in history have surmised. What’s really interesting about David — and I haven’t told you anything about him yet — is that he is everywhere.
Schwab: I’ve never heard of this person, so…
Yael: In poetry, popular novels, movies — in describing any sort of underdog story, we have references to David and Goliath constantly. It’s a trope. When we talk about someone flying too close to the sun and we talk about Icarus — like we talk about an underdog as David — these are motifs, I think my English teacher would probably call them, that flow through the cultural conversation. And David is one of those, not only with respect to Goliath.
Schwab: Yeah, the David versus Goliath story is one of the great ones.
Yael: I want to address three different relationships in his life. We have David and Goliath. We’re also going to talk about David and Bathsheba. And the third is David and Jonathan.
Schwab: David and Jonathan — is it because it’s my name? For my bar mitzvah, the haftorah I read was a story about David and Jonathan. It’s something I’ve been thinking about from a young age.
Yael: Most if not all of our listeners are familiar with David and Goliath, but just in case anyone isn’t familiar with King David — King of Israel — I want to situate him at least where we are introduced to him in the Book of Prophets, which is one of the three portions of the Hebrew Bible. We have the Pentateuch — what’s in a Torah scroll, the five books of Moses. Then you have Prophets, which is the story of what transpires to the people of Israel once they cross into the land after the 40 years in the desert. And then we have this miscellany called literally “Writings,” which includes the Megillot — the stories of Ruth and Esther, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations — and a few other things, among them Chronicles (Divre HaYamim in Hebrew). Some of David’s story is told in Chronicles, and some of that story does not 100% line up with what we learn in the books of Samuel and the books of Kings.
Schwab: Mm-hmm.
Yael: That’s where the bulk of the narrative comes from. Samuel — the namesake of the book — was a prophet and the leader of the people of Israel. Most of Prophets is comprised of military history: lots of battles between different tribes of Israelites and other ethnic groups in the area. But also a lot of alliances and cooperation — we’ll see that later in David’s story.
Schwab: Right, and that’s a big part of David’s story — both military leadership and diplomatic leadership.
Yael: Right. And maybe not being the best at it sometimes. After a particularly bad military defeat, the people of Israel decide they should have a king — everyone around them has kings, maybe they’d be more successful that way. Saul is anointed the first king of Israel by Samuel the prophet. There are some underlying theological questions about whether it’s appropriate for the people of Israel to have a king — and maybe that’s why we don’t have one today. TBD. And if and when the Messiah returns, the Messiah is a descendant of David. So David really plants himself at the center of both the political and theological underpinnings of this religion.
Schwab: He’s like the archetypal Jewish king in a lot of ways, but he’s not the first one.
Yael: He’s not the first, but he’s the first success. Josephus describes Saul as a cunning military strategist — that’s not how the Bible sees him. It’s interesting to wonder whether Josephus had other reasons for believing that. As we talked about in our Josephus episode, his life was very much in the hands of his Roman patrons. While we do trust his history, there’s a question as to whether certain shadings of his stories are meant to flatter those patrons.
Schwab: That’s part of the reason David kind of emerges, right? It’s like the failures of Saul.
Yael: Yes. David emerges because Saul is losing battles and the people are looking for something new — but also because Saul displeases God in a variety of ways, one of which is bringing a sacrifice he was not supposed to bring. Then Samuel is sent by prophecy to find a new king in the house of Yeshai — or Jesse — in Bethlehem. Samuel arrives and is greeted by Jesse and seven of Jesse’s eight sons. The youngest, the eighth son, David, was out in the fields with the sheep being a shepherd — a metaphor, you know, for the shepherd of Israel he will become.
Schwab: If you wanted to paint a picture of someone with humble origins — this is not somebody at the head of the table in a house of nobility. This is a person literally doing the work out in the field, connected to nature, connected to a different form of leadership.
Yael: When David comes on the scene and is anointed by Samuel, Saul is still king at this point.
Schwab: Certainly according to Saul.
Yael: Very much so. It’s not going to be possible for us to talk about every conflict and every incident.
Schwab: You’re saying we can’t cover the whole book of Samuel in this episode. You should strongly recommend reading it — we don’t have a promo code for it, but you can pick up the Bible anywhere.
Yael: Part of this felt like studying for a Tanakh test. I had some really wonderful Bible teachers in my life, but I felt like I was going back in time to when I had to memorize the military battles — when was Saul fighting the Philistines, when was David fighting the Philistines, when was David aligned with the Philistines, who was the woman that Saul encountered in the woods who maybe practiced necromancy and tried to raise somebody from the dead…
Schwab: I think that’s from Star Wars — I promise this is a story in the Bible. The Witch of Endor. It is a thing in Star Wars too. It does sound like I made it up, but it’s in there.
Yael: Isn’t Endor a thing in Star Wars? Maybe George Lucas also took a Tanakh test.
Yael: We’re not going to get into everything that brings Saul down and David up. But somewhere in there, David is summoned to lull Saul to sleep when he is unwell. David becomes very beloved in Saul’s house — he views Saul as a father figure. He is not only beloved by Jonathan, but also by Saul’s daughter Michal, who becomes one of David’s many, many wives. He’s first offered Merav, the older daughter, but they don’t end up getting married. David and Jonathan become very, very good friends. This is a story that has gained popularity because there is a pretty widely held belief that there was a sexual component to the relationship between David and Jonathan — which is not something we see so much in the biblical narrative. The reason people believe it is not only because of the anecdotes where their closeness is demonstrated narratively, but because of the text of the canon, which says that the love between David and Jonathan was such that he loved him more than the love of women. And because the love of women is presumed to be sexual for a man, there is this discussion and belief that there might have been a sexual relationship between David and Jonathan.
Schwab: Mm-hmm.
Yael: I think that it doesn’t really matter. I don’t really care who David did or did not sleep with. It doesn’t change anything for me historically, and it doesn’t change anything for me theologically.
Schwab: Yeah.
Yael: But I will say — for someone who doesn’t think it matters — I actually think there is a very chaste, non-sexual interpretation here. The love between David and Jonathan was clearly one deeply steeped in loyalty. And as will play out over the course of David’s life, loyalty is very hard to find — it’s rarer and much deeper than sexual attraction or sexual love. So to me, a deeper love than the love of women is a deep emotional trust, a loyalty, a love that doesn’t bring about someone’s downfall. Whereas throughout the course of David’s life, sexual love or heterosexual romantic activities are constantly causing bad things to happen. So I think you can read the entire story of David and Jonathan as being about a pure loyalty, whether or not they had a sexual or romantic connection.
Schwab: And Jonathan betrays — certainly in the words of his father Saul — Jonathan betrays his own father in favor of his friend.
Yael: Yes, he is ultimately the most loyal to David. And to give some examples of where sexual activity is a negative in David’s life, we can start with David and Bathsheba.
Yael: Obviously, the first thing I think of when I think of David and Bathsheba is Leonard Cohen’s masterpiece — Hallelujah. “Your faith was strong but you needed proof / You saw her bathing on the roof / Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you.” This is not a poetry class.
Schwab: For many people, more than the actual biblical text, this is the canonical recounting of that story.
Yael: This is an important piece of Jewish literature. What I find really interesting is Cohen’s choice of words: “overthrew you.” Overthrow is a word that attaches to kingship, to a position of power being snatched away. It could have been “awed you,” “astounded you,” “attracted you” — but “overthrew you” means it’s undercutting David in some way.
Schwab: Can we give a brief recounting of the story for people who might not be familiar?
Yael: Sure. David, as King, is walking around his palace and sees on the roof of a neighboring building a beautiful woman bathing. He found her very attractive and had his people summon her to the palace, where he impregnated her. An important element I seem to have skipped: she’s married. And not only is she married, she’s married to Uriah HaChiti — a Hittite, not an Israelite, but one of the other ethnic groups in the area. He’s fighting on behalf of David, away from home, allied with David’s army. Once David finds out that Bathsheba is pregnant, he doesn’t want that to get out. So he has someone bring Uriah back and tells him, go lay with your wife. Because if Uriah sleeps with her, the de facto assumption — and this is actually how it works under United States law — is that the husband is the father. But Uriah is so loyal that he refuses to go to Bathsheba. He says, how can I be with my wife when all of my brethren are out on the battlefield? So ultimately, what David does to forestall the adultery getting out ends up being one of the most famous stories about him for all eternity: he has his commanders send Uriah to the front lines of battle so that he will be killed. It’s not direct murder — he doesn’t have somebody stab him on purpose — but he puts him in a position where it is extremely likely that he will be killed. And he is. Other people are killed as well. The first child of David and Bathsheba — conceived in that moment — dies. But their second child, Solomon, does become David’s successor, despite the fact that he has numerous other children with numerous other wives, many of whom are older than Solomon.
Schwab: Heard of him. So this is the authentic lineage, the real legacy.
Yael: And the real legacy comes from adultery. Not only that — it comes through the tribe of Judah and the incestuous relationship between Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar. That’s something Josephus writes: that David is descended from Tamar and also from Lot.
Yael: What’s really effective about Rabbi Wolpe’s book is that each chapter focuses on one trait of David as a person. It’s not chronological — it’s not based on the timeline of the books of Samuel, Kings, or Josephus’s Antiquities of the Jews. It’s divided into chapters like: David as a father, David as a king, David as a husband, David as a fugitive, and so on. The first chapter is “Young David,” and it goes through lover, husband, fugitive, king, father, sinner, ending with “Death of a King.” By pulling out those individual characteristics and gathering all the relevant incidents from Prophets into one chapter next to each other —
Schwab: Mm-hmm.
Yael: You get such a vivid picture of David as a human. Rabbi Wolpe quotes a historian named Baruch Halpern who says that David is the first human being in Jewish — he’s not sure if Halpern said “in Jewish history” or “in Jewish literature” — but he is such a multifaceted character.
Schwab: In terms of the complex portrait we get of his successes and failures. And I was going to ask — is that the title of the book, A Divided Heart? What does he mean by that exactly?
Yael: I think it’s exemplified by his response to the Amnon and Tamar story. He is a father to both Amnon and Tamar — how do you deal with that? And he deals with it by doing nothing. It’s also exemplified in his relationship with Saul. He has a real filial loyalty to Saul — Saul is a father figure to him. He’s brought in to comfort Saul, he has this calming presence on Saul initially, he’s an asset, and then he becomes a usurper.
Schwab: Going back to this idea of “the first human being” — we have this very complex, multifaceted character. He’s not presented as a completely idealized version of a person who rises directly to leadership, never falters, never has any issues. He’s the opposite — a very complicated character. If you were constructing the myth of a king, you’d have a Superman type: only complete goodness in their heart, never made a mistake, not beholden to any urges that any of us feel. And David is not that.
Yael: And his kryptonite is not external — his kryptonite is internal. He can be taken down by his own inclinations. He doesn’t need an enemy to find himself in a pickle. Think about the arrogance it took for young David to go up against Goliath. We think about the outcome, but in the text we hear David ask before he goes out to fight: what will happen to the man who defeats Goliath? It reminds me of the question in Esther: what will come to a man whom the king favors? That’s Haman asking: if I do something great, what are you going to do for me? That’s David’s question. What’s in it for me if I go out and shoot my slingshot right between Goliath’s eyes? And then decapitate him and walk around with his bloody severed head. We don’t usually hear that part of the story. We don’t hear David’s initial inclination: let me go do this because something is in it for me. He also goes and collects — there’s a bounty where Saul’s daughter will be given in marriage to someone who brings the foreskins of 100 Philistines. I think David goes out and collects 1,000. It’s very much a “what’s in it for me” mindset.
Schwab: Right. Even in the metaphor — when we talk about David and Goliath stories, we usually mean winning despite seemingly insurmountable odds. But we don’t usually think of it as being about someone who thinks they’re going to win. It wasn’t surprising to David. He expected that he was going to win.
Yael: It’s not usually someone who thinks he has a secret weapon. It’s the Mighty Ducks beating the Hawks and not thinking they can do it — not them thinking Wayne Gretzky is secretly going to come out in between periods and win on their behalf. That might be a super dated reference. Not only is the Mighty Ducks a dated reference, but Wayne Gretzky is a dated reference — sadly, the Great One.
Schwab: Mm-hmm.
Yael: I’m sure there have been more recent remakes that are more relevant. But I want to say one more thing about David as this bifurcated character.
Yael: Rabbi Wolpe talks about the fact that at a certain point David beseeches God and says, I want to build you a temple. And God’s response is essentially: I will build the temple to myself, but David is not the one to build it. Solomon has to build it because David’s hands are so bloody — whether you think of that in terms of his military campaigns or just about Uriah and the people killed in that one incident. So it’s this noble religious action that he wants to take — but is it because it would aggrandize himself to have a temple, the way other nations have temples? Meanwhile, there was already an altar, and the Ark of the Covenant was at Shiloh — the Philistines had it, David gets it back, there’s a lot going on there. So David does not build the temple, even though it is his idea.
Schwab: And if there is anyone in history identified with the praising of God, it’s David. He’s a musician and poet — an artist. He’s brought in to help.
Yael: We didn’t mention that he wrote the Psalms. David is the Psalmist. The Psalms, at least in the Jewish tradition, are the most potent praise of God that we have. We use them not only to praise God when we’re happy and celebrating, but also when we’re pleading with God for something. They are all-purpose and said at every possible type of Jewish ritual. People also say them in their own lives daily. And that’s all David. Many of them begin with “A Song of David.”
Schwab: Yeah, so many of them literally start that way. It’s a very complex character — from his origins as a king and family man, to being a person who wrote many of our most foundational prayers.
Yael: One thing Rabbi Wolpe does really, really well is bring various Psalms to bear on various incidents in David’s life. Something I’ve never studied or done is: what does Psalm X have to do with what happens in the life of David? But Rabbi Wolpe does that.
Schwab: Because there’s very rarely any one-to-one correlation in the text itself — here are prayers, in a different part of Tanakh, not written as “this is what David wrote at this particular moment.” So that sounds really interesting.
Yael: It reminded me a bit of Rav Klonimus Kalman Shapira — a rabbi in the Warsaw Ghetto who wrote sermons about the weekly Torah portion that in a coded way very much reflected the current events happening in the ghetto. And I don’t know if the Psalms are coded. There are 150 of them. The Psalms do occasionally talk about things that happen in the narrative.
Schwab: Rabbi Wolpe draws from what’s going on and explains what that particular Psalm is talking about.
Yael: He connects various Psalms to various incidents and also various elements of David’s personality.
Yael: Thinking about David and his monumental cultural importance — we have not yet mentioned the fact that what I assume is the most famous sculpture in the world is Michelangelo’s David. Actually, David was a figure that many sculptors of the time depicted in different ways. Michelangelo’s David is not totally unique — it actually compares well to a number of other David sculptures of the time, including Bernini’s David. Raphael and Donatello also sculpted Davids — the other Ninja Turtles. Whereas Michelangelo’s David is this huge, chiseled — no pun intended — very muscular figure, some of the other sculptures portray him as very small, very slender, which maybe fits the narrative. He is the runt of the litter. He is not described as handsome.
Schwab: Right, Michelangelo’s David is very different than the picture we would seem to get.
Yael: Other people in the story are described as handsome. His older brother is described as handsome. Av Shalom is described as very handsome and vain, with lustrous locks that ultimately figure into his death. There is so much material art about David. The cover of Rabbi Wolpe’s book — at least this edition — is a Chagall. You have David with his harp, wearing a crown. So you have the king element and the artist element. And for those of you on video, there’s also a reproduction of David lifting Goliath’s decapitated head in victory — an engraving by Gustave Doré, 1866.
Schwab: Yeah, grotesque — very large head. We also did a whole episode on the Star of David — the Magen David — which David is associated with. It’s probably not historically accurate that there’s a direct connection between that shape and David, but it speaks to how central David is to Jewish history and Jewish identity.
Yael: Rabbi Wolpe is so well-rounded in his knowledge of the art and literature about David. He cites a poem by the first published African-American woman poet in history — from the late 1700s — about Goliath of Gath. There are also a lot of comparisons between David and King Lear, among other Shakespearean characters. And one of them is in his discussion of young David. He quotes Shakespeare — “golden lads and girls all must, as chimney sweepers, come to dust” — and writes: “Modern readers cannot see young David plain without knowing the travails that will beset him, the ignominious fall, the theological accruers of centuries. We cannot strip away from David who he became. Glowing, he singes others, and we remember the wounds as well as the promise.”
Schwab: You mentioned earlier that he’s “the first human being.” And I think that’s why it’s so appealing to have all of this art portraying him in different ways — he is this deep, multifaceted character. And that reading you just shared — “we cannot strip away from what he became” — it is hard to think about David in human terms, given how much there is in his own story and how much he’s been discussed and dissected over not just centuries, but millennia.
Yael: Rabbi Wolpe very briefly touches on the archaeology, really in passing in the introduction. We have three or four items that have been discovered that indicate the kingdom of David was in existence. And since you did an amazing episode on the Merneptah Stele — one of the things we’ll be talking about — do you want to tell our lovely listeners what a stele is?
Schwab: Sure. Apparently I was pronouncing it wrong that entire episode — we called it the Merneptah “Steely.” But it’s “stele.” It’s sort of like a monumental inscription — something we don’t use today. When we talked about the Merneptah Stele, it’s a very ancient monumental inscription that was preserved, written to demonstrate this Egyptian king’s great leadership, and was well preserved archaeologically. And the most relevant part is that it has the word Israel on it — it’s the earliest mention of Israel on the historical record.
Yael: You should never make fun of someone for mispronouncing a word — it means they learned it from reading. So you learned it from reading, and I learned it from you, so by the transitive property, I learned it from reading. So that is one of the archaeological relics. We also have the Tel Dan Stele. The Tel Dan Stele was found in 1993 in northern Israel. Apparently you and I just missed seeing it on display in New York at the Jewish Museum in 2024-2025, which is disappointing. It references the house of David through letters representing the sounds B-Y-T and D-W-D — the W having the V sound — so “Beit David.” The inscription is in Aramaic, it was discovered in Tel Dan in northern Israel, and it references both “Beit David” and “Yehoram Melech Yisrael.” This piece is dated to the ninth century BCE — the Iron Age — and it matches the biblical narrative of kings we have.
Schwab: Extremely old.
Yael: There is also the Mesha Stele, also known as the Moabite Stone. It was discovered in 1868 by an Anglican missionary in what’s now Jordan. It’s in the Louvre — I don’t think it’s on display, just in their collection. And Jordan wants it back, so there’s some controversy about that. But it also verifies kingdoms and descendants of David mentioned in the Book of Kings.
Schwab: So it’s not easy to steal if you were thinking about it.
Yael: Ba dum bum ching. You’re so multifaceted, just like David. There are also Assyrian monoliths discovered in modern Turkey that refer again to the house of David. And we have a relief of Shishak the First from 925 BCE that references the “Heights of David,” which we presume to refer to the hills surrounding Jerusalem. We believe historically that David existed around the year 1000 BCE. One thing I didn’t mention: David is the one who makes Jerusalem the capital. Historically, it seems like Jerusalem was a bit of a backwater prior to David’s decision to move the capital there — previously it had been Hebron. David moves to Jerusalem and builds the City of David, which we can still see today in the Old City. And that is archaeologically when we start to see the urbanization of that area, which hadn’t been much of anything prior to David’s arrival.
Schwab: Right, David, yeah.
Yael: David has been for centuries — if not always — the most popular name for Jewish men. I don’t think it’s ever dropped out of the top five, and it’s probably number one all the time. And there is a song that is very prevalent in Jewish life that we sing to this day: “David Melekh Yisrael, Chai V’kayam” — David, King of Israel, lives and endures. That is a song we sing today because his legacy — the shadow that he cast on Jewish history — certainly lives and certainly endures. And regardless of your personal religious beliefs, historically, David is said to be the predecessor of the Messiah. So for as long as people are hoping for a messianic age, people are hoping for the return of the House of David. And you can’t get any more lasting than that.
Credits
Thanks for listening to Jewish History Nerds, brought to you by Unpacked, an open-door media brand.If you like this show, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and please give us a rating and review. It really helps new listeners find the show.Check out unpacked.media for everything Unpacked related, and go to Spotify or YouTube to watch our latest videos.Most importantly, be in touch. Write to us at nerds at unpacked.media. We really love to hear from you. Jewish History Nerds is hosted by me, Yael Steiner, and by me, Jonathan Schwab. Our education lead is Dr. Henry Abramson, and our editors are Rob Perra and Ari Schlacht.We’re produced by Jenny Falcon. Thanks for listening.