Noam
Hey everyone, it’s Noam. Before we get into this episode, I want to say a quick word. My guest for today, Maytal Kowalski, is the executive director of JSpaceCanada, and in this conversation we talk about her personal experience of what life is like for Jews in Canada today. We talk about anti Semitism, Zionism, and what it means to hold progressive and Zionist identities at the same time.
I think too often we ignore that part of the conversation. What does it look like to be progressive and firmly in that world and Zionist and firmly in that world? Do they have to conflict with each other? Is there reconciliation? How does that look? I like Maytal a lot. She seemed like someone I not only wanted to learn from and with, but also maybe even be friends with. At the same time, like many of my friends, some of what she says didn’t and doesn’t sit as comfortably with me.
Maybe some of you watching or listening may feel the same. And maybe not. Maybe you’re like, yeah, this is exactly the way I see things as well. But as you’ve heard me say enough times, modeling disagreement between Jews, real disagreement, and between all peoples, by the way, but in this context, between Jewish people, without walking away from each other, that matters more right now than ever. So as you watch or you listen, please keep that in mind.
Okay, here’s my conversation with Maytal Kowalski.
Noam
Coming up, on Wondering Jews…
Maytal
I get that it feels scary and I get that it feels like we’re gonna have to go into something that might make kids ask questions that maybe we would rather not have them asking, but it’s better that they ask it now and grapple through it with us than move into those anti Zionist spaces that you’re talking about, in my opinion.
Noam
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam. I’m Noam, and it’s just me today. Well, it’s not actually just me today. We are continuing our series on international perspectives within the Jewish community. Actually, the Jewish communities. We’re speaking to Jews across the globe about what they are observing, what their personal experiences are, what’s giving them hope, what their challenges are, and from all different perspectives.
Maytal Kowalski was born in Winnipeg, she made Aliyah to Israel in 1994, and she now lives in Vancouver. She is the executive director of JSpaceCanada. Maytal, welcome to Wondering Jews.
Maytal Kowalski
Thank you. Thanks so much, Noam, for having me. It’s great to see you.
Noam
Good to see you also. So you were a listener of Unpacking Israel History. You are, or you were, you are.
Maytal Kowalski
I a I I am listening to podcasts overall less. I don’t know, like it there’s so much content out there. I can’t I can’t I can’t be consuming at all. Also like now with the work that I do, just like being in the Israel Palestine space and then like listening to podcasts about it and reading articles about it, sometimes it’s like what’s the most what’s like the the most
Noam
Why?
Noam
There’s a lot of content.
Maytal Kowalski
Antithetical to what I do in my daily life and like Unpacking Israeli History is is not it. but but yeah no I listened
Noam
That’s like a double negative bic it’s like a double negative ’cause you’re so focused on the the story that that you’re trying to so what kind of podcast or content are you listening to then? Which is what what is antithetical to your world right now?
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
So okay, actually, I’m so glad you asked. my two favorites right now, I’m listening to what’s it called? I think it’s called like Where Do We Begin? It’s hosted by Esther Perel, and it’s like basically it’s like a therapy, it’s a therapy session with a lot of stuff about relationships, but like just a lot of stuff just kind of, you know, navigating this world. And then I’ll give a plug for especially because we’re gonna talk about Canada today.
Noam
Yeah. Nice.
Maytal Kowalski
I’ll give a plug for a very similar type of podcast, which is on the CBC Podcast Network, our national broadcaster, which is called Other People’s Problems. And it’s kind of the same thing where like you listen to a therapy session and kind of hear how the therapist like navigates what the person is going through. So it’s it’s just the right amount of voyeuristic.
Noam
I was gonna say that is seriously voyeuristic. As as the child of two clinical psychologists like that like you could you don’t have to watch a show and listen to podcasts, just speak to my parents. That’s what you know, like th that that’s the episode.
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah, well there y there you go. They you know they they miss a chance to really cash in on what they do and like turn it into a podcast.
Noam
that’s not that’s not them. But but Maytal, you were you like you listen to the history of Israel, you care about unpacking Israel Israel, you care about the story of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and you are the executive director of JSpaceCanada. You were born in Winnipeg to an interfaith family and you made it just could you what what what is that what does that mean?
Maytal Kowalski
First.
Maytal Kowalski
Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
so mixed family. My dad’s r Polish Roman Catholic and my mom is Ashkenazi Jewish.
Noam
Okay, then you made Aliah in ninety four? Okay. So you made Aliyah ninety four and there you lived on a kibbutz, you lived in a Moshav, you lived in the mixed city of how do you say it? Nazareth Illit
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
Now it’s called Nof Hagalil. at the time yeah, and at the time Nazareth Illit, Nat’ratidit, Natseratidit, yeah.
Noam
Nof Hagalil.
Noam
And then and so and you went to junior high school there, you went to high school there, and you were in the kibbutz schooling system. And now and now you live in Vancouver. I’ve never been to Vancouver. Is Vancou okay, is Vancouver awesome? ‘Cause like people say it’s awesome, but then I’m an NBA guy and Steve Francis was drafted by the Vancouver Grizzlies and he chose not to go there. And in my head that’s always how I think of Vancouver. Is that horrible?
Maytal Kowalski
Yep. Yeah.
Yes.
Maytal Kowalski
you gotta come out here.
Maytal Kowalski
I think he made a bad decision. I don’t know anything about basketball. And so like I don’t know this person and I don’t want to pass judgment, but I think that they made probably the worst life decision that they ever could have made. Okay, well, okay, look, Vancouver.
Noam
He did.
Noam
interesting. ‘Cause because say give me give me a quick plug for Vancouver. ‘Cause there are a lot there are a lot of Jewish schools that use Unpacked for Educators, use our content in Vancouver, and I love I love that, but I’ve never been to Vancouver.
Maytal Kowalski
Amazing. Yeah.
Vancouver’s amazing. You have the mountains, you have the ocean. It’s very like Pacific Northwest. It’s not dissimilar from, you know, if you’re going down the coast of the US, Seattle, Oregon, California. But the difference is that we’re in Canada. So we just immediately are just that much, that much better and that much more polite and nicer up here. but it is honestly a really fantastic community. There is such a connection to nature, like what people do.
is be outside. Like on a long weekend, you will people will be out, you know, people of all ages, of all races, of all backgrounds will be out, you know, camping, hiking, whatever. And I will say, because this is also another thing that we’re going talk about, I have lived in three different cities in Canada. And I can say that I have so much love for the Vancouver Jewish community. There’s just a fabulous, fabulous community out here that we can maybe talk about a little bit later. But yeah, really good Jewish life out here as well.
Noam
Love it.
Noam
Yeah, we will. We will.
Okay, so so let’s let’s talk about this. We are in the midst of doing episodes about Jews around the world. We are hearing so much about the hatred of Jewish people, anti Semitism, whatever term you want, abroad. And we want to hear your personal experiences. We’re not asking you to be an avatar for an entire country, but and and we also want to go.
Maytal Kowalski
Amazing. Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Noam
deeper than the headlines and learn about what you think makes your community special. So I have some questions for you about the experience of growing up in Israel, being a Zionist, but also steering a Canadian organization that has progressive views. So I want to talk I want to talk about all of this, but let’s let’s start super simple. We’re but but but but we are the wandering Jews. So this is what we do here. So I I I wanna I want to start with okay. Tell me about growing what we’ll get to all the juicy stuff
Maytal Kowalski
Super simple. We should have so much time to do that. Yes. Yeah.
Noam
What does it mean to be a progressive Zionist now? What does it mean to be somebody that has nuanced discussions about things that you and I might see similarly, might see differently? what does it mean to be growing up in Israel as a part of an interfaith family? Could you say a little bit more about that? How did it shape you?
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah, so well I’ll I’ll add a little I’ll add a layer to that, which is yes, my my par my dad is Polish Roman Catholic, my mom is Jewish. we all moved to Israel as a family unit in nineteen ninety four. a big part also I will add of the reason that we moved was, you know, my mom was real s I mean still is real like
dyed-in-the-wool Zionist, loves Israel, always wanted to move there. They went, my parents went to Israel on their honeymoon before I was born. That’s actually why I have a an Israeli name and like a modern Hebrew name that at the time that I was born, many people were not being named, you know, like contemporary Hebrew names. Thank you. I like it too. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, nice, nice. you’re yes, yes. But she probably spells it differently.
Noam
It’s a great name by the way. I I just want to give you a shout out to your parents for naming you Maytal. My niece n my niece’s name Maytal, and so it’s a top notch name. Yeah. I should know how she spells things, but I think it’s actually spelled similarly. At least at least all the consonants are the same, I think. E I Yeah, E I T A L. Yeah. No, you’re good.
Maytal Kowalski
Okay. Ooh, that would be very exciting. Okay. The Israelis usually do M-E-I-T-A-L. So they always think my spelling is weird. But anyways, so she always you know she really wanted to live there. And in ninety-four, remember we’re talking about
The era of Oslo, Rabin, peace with Jordan, you know, moving toward a negotiated agreement with the Palestinians. And, you know, I she really felt like there there is going to be peace. And this was also like the era of, you know, Clinton, the Good Friday Agreement in Ireland, you know, f like Fugiyama’s like end of history, we’re all just gonna be a democracy and no wars anymore, which it worked out exactly how we thought, so that’s great.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. and so so so she was like, this is the time to move. So our move was very much, you know, not only ideological in terms of being Zionists, but ideological in terms of the type of Zionism that we identified with and that really shaped our our family.
After we moved, two big things happened on the personal and on the on the global or on the geopolitical. The first is that my parents got divorced, very quickly after we moved there, my dad moved back to Canada and we stayed in Israel. and the second is the assassination of Itzhak Rabin and kind of the slow deterioration of the peace process and the Second Intifada and the election of Netanyahu. So things went in very, very different directions than what had been thought. And then my mom
I guess about a year afterwards, met who would then be her partner for the duration of the time that we lived in Israel. We’re all now back in North America, who was a a Palestinian citizen of Israel, Christian Palestinian citizen of Israel from Nazareth. So that’s how we ended up in in Upper Nazareth. so not only would I have an interfaith family growing up in Canada of like Catholic dad and Jewish mom.
Maytal Kowalski
But then in Israel I had, you know, this this male father figure, stepfather, they never got married, but like kind of stepfather figure who is Arab Israeli, Palestinian Arab Israeli. and you know, with with my mom. So like I have only known a world of seeing relationships that are
that are so much bigger than just the two of the people and that say a lot and that hold a lot of responsibility for projecting something into the world of like what it means to be Jewish, what it means to be interfaith, what it means to b s meet meet other people, learn from other communities. and, you know, like my mom and her partner were also so they were so committed to
seeing a world in which their relationship was the norm. and I will also say that they really didn’t instill in us, even when they had, you know, racism and bigotry thrown at them, which was often, they never instilled in us like, this society is doomed or everybody’s racist. It was like, this is the work that needs to happen to get us to the world that we want to live in. And it’s everyone’s responsibility to take a part in it. And so
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Maytal Kowalski
That really, you know, I have learned that and not only learned that, but I’ve seen it firsthand from from a young age. So I think that really gives a lot of insight into the opinions that I hold and the way that I show up in the world and also of course the work that I do.
Noam
Alright, so tell me about the work that you I mean, you have a very interesting family background. That is objectively, you might be a one of one in terms of having that you know, Roman Catholic father, Jewish mom to self-identified I don’t know if he’s self-identified, Palestinian Israeli or Arab citizen of Israel. There it’s the all different descriptions of Arab s people who live in Israel, so it depends on how he identifies. But that that’s a Okay, so he identifies as Arab Israeli. So that I mean that is that is a unique
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. Yeah. It’s
Maytal Kowalski
He would identify as Arab Israeli, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Noam
situation that you’re in. So what what tell tell me about like how you got to JSpace. What’s JSpace? What is that?
Maytal Kowalski
Okay, so JSpaceCanada is we are a charity nonprofit based here in Canada. We’re a pro-Israel, pro-peace, pro-democracy, Jewish Zionist organization. all of our work is to preserve, promote, and advance a two-state solution for Israel and the Palestinians.
and the way that we do that is really two-pronged. It’s through government advocacy and speaking and meeting with politicians, members of parliament, and you know, bringing forward policy recommendations and policy papers. We have a policy center as well that deals with that, that’s headed by one of the former Canadian ambassadors to Israel, John Allen, who’s a fantastic human being. and then we work on the communal side as well. We
We know that we cannot do this work without a constituency and without people behind us who feel the same way as us or want to push for the same ideas and ideals as us. So we do a lot of work within community in Jewish spaces, figuring out how to open up a more nuanced, complex conversation around Israel while leading with compassion and care and empathy and you know, really making the point to to to listen and try to try to grow and evolve together.
Noam
I wanna read to you I want to get to Canada. And again, like I said, no one is representative of a whole nation. I’d like to hear your opinion
Maytal Kowalski
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Noam
on what makes Canadian Jewish community so darn special. Because a a lot of our audience is I mean, we have Australian, South African, Canadian, but obviously I shouldn’t say obviously, but a lot of our community is American. but here’s the thing that I just saw, and I’m just gonna read this to you. about the Canadian experience. There was a I don’t know if this is I I don’t know enough about this, but there was a I mean, the name of the restaurant is called Noam, so it caught my attention in a very
Maytal Kowalski
No, yeah. Yeah. Of course, of course.
Noam
narcissistic sort of way. So there was a there w there was a fire in a Noam restaurant and that was in in is that in Toronto or no Montreal. It’s a Montreal. Then there was a t in Toronto a gunman fired at windows of the Kiva’s bagel bar, which is a Jewish owned bakery chain. There was something that happened at Temple Emmanuel Beth Shalom, a reform congregation in Montreal, where they smashed a window and they tried to start a fire inside.
Maytal Kowalski
Montreal. Yep.
Maytal Kowalski
Yep. Yep.
Noam
And then Deborah Lipstadt, who is a noted Holocaust historian and she said, and the the former sp US Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, this is all from The Forward, she said the no on fire was utterly predictable. If this is not a wake up call, I don’t know. Do more people have to die for it to be a wake up call? How much more do you need? And we also, you know, I I I wanna I wanna understand, and you and you told our producer
about two synagogues in Vancouver that have been attacked recently as well. So h how do you what do you make of the hatred, the violence against the Jewish people in Canada? How would you speak about that situation?
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. So I mean the first thing that I would say obviously is that it is
horrifying, upsetting, absolutely unacceptable. And I would also say that I get very frustrated when I see politicians make statements afterwards and say, you know, this is not who we are. This is not what Canada is, because how many times can something happen before you have to say like, well, it may not be who we are, who we want to be, but it seems like it’s who we’re becoming and we better stop that really fast. there is I’m no I would not sit here and and downplay any of it. It’s it’s scary. It’s terrifying. I feel
awful for the community. I myself don’t have children, but I hear from my friends who are, you know, like, do I send my kids to Jewish day school? What is security going to be at their summer camps? and these are all legitimate concerns that I also think are catching us by surprise. I think that it has only been really in the past few years coinciding with October 7th and then the war in Gaza that we are all of a sudden
recognizing that our safety and our security and who we thought we were as Jews in Canada is not what it used to be and maybe it never was. and and that is
That is unsurprisingly, we pull the Canadian Jewish community every year. That is unsurprisingly one of their top concerns. the Israel-Palestine conflict is very low on their concerns, anti-Semit rising anti-Semitism in Canada is very high on their list of concerns. and and and as it should be. And I want politicians from all levels of government to see that and take that seriously. So that’s kind of the first thing that I would say to that. the second piece is what do I make of it?
Maytal Kowalski
I think that fortunately or unfortunately, and I’ll get to why this is fortunate, but
This is something that is a global phenomenon. This is something that is affecting Jews, but is affecting other communities as well. I know that there was just there have been quite a few also anti-Muslim Islamophobic attacks, also largely in Montreal and Toronto, in the same time span that there has been on the Jewish community. And I don’t say that to try to equivocate or to try to downplay one or the other. What I think that we need to recognize is that there is rising hatred all around us. We live in an era of misinformation.
Disinformation, a lack of trust in institutions, a lack of trust in traditional mainstream media. And I don’t know that any government or any society is equipped to deal with it adequately. They I don’t think they are dealing with it adequately. And I think that the rising hate that we are seeing, that we also see in the UK and Australia, and I’m sure you’ve heard this from your guests from those places, is
is a is a part of that, it is a symptom of that. It needs to be treated both as unique and about anti-Semitism, but also as universal and about arising hate. And man, that is hard to untangle. And I will be the first to say that I don’t know that anyone is doing it all that well.
Noam
Yeah.
Noam
Yeah, because I I mean my you know, when when I give talks on on it anti Semitism and Islamophobia, let’s say, sometimes a very reasonable person will say, Hey, why are you giving a talk on both of those at the same time? Can’t you let anti Semitism just stand on its own? Why are you even bringing in why do you have to bring in someone else’s, you know, bad behavior towards one community? Why th th there is a unique there is a unique history of Jew hatred of anti Semitism.
That exists throughout the world, like let’s deal with that. Are you suggesting that you think that the there’s a broader issue of fighting hatred in general, and that if you fight hatred in general, you’ll also be able to solve the problem of anti Semitism? Or do you do you view them as independent of one another?
Maytal Kowalski
Okay, so kind of neither. I feel like it is I feel like we are in like this is where I think that we have to go deep into our Jewish teachings and our Jewish texts and think about where our Jewish values and our Jewish ideas sit on this, because I think that this is at its core a push-pull between
Universalism and particularism, which is something that we talk about that all our Jewish texts talk about, and that from the beginning of time as Jews, we have tried to grapple between where do we put our universal values and our particular values and where do they overlap. and I think that probably, you know, what we need to Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Noam
Ma just to just to define our terms, universalism means caring deeply about the broader world and particularism means protecting ourselves. Okay. Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
Exactly, exactly. yes, thank you for that. And so and I and I think that the same thing exists here. Like I always kind of try to talk about that idea of our of our particularism versus our universalism with the idea of like, let’s let our particularist values inform our universalism, right? So I think that as a Jewish community, we do need to start with
Yeah, thinking about anti-Semitism is something unique. It is unique. It functions as a conspiracy theory, not as, you know, a bigotry or hatred as we often see with other minority communities. the way that it is manifesting now in political spaces, both on the political right and the political left, I think is actually a really good example of that, that both sides can be very
very susceptible to conspiracy theories. And we see that both sides are very con susceptible these days to conspiracy theories. You know, on the right, it’s about it’s about kind of like Jews controlling the world or or, you know, f far far away interests in Iran, whatever. On the left, we know, you know, it’s it’s about it’s about Zionism and kind of linking it into white supremacism and capitalism and all these different kind of like inherent evils or whatever. and so and so it really does function this conspiratorial way. And I think that that is what is unique.
To anti-Semitism that is particular. And we as a Jewish community, I would love to see us be able to have those conversations in allyship with others who are interested in fighting hatred all around. So I want us and I strive for us to be able to show up and find allies and build allyships, even if they are very inconvenient, with other minority communities and be able to say.
this is how this is unique for us, but let us use the examples of how we have combated this in the past and what we have learned about this in the past and what our Jewish texts and values teach us to fight this for all of us. And so I think and and I think that that is probably a little bit more complex than
Maytal Kowalski
any political statement that is looking to shore up a base can make or that any Instagram infographic can can provide for those who are trying to learn more. but I really I have to believe that we can do it ’cause I think it’s the only way to do it effectively.
Noam
What would you say to somebody, you know, who who I don’t know, who who hears about this anti Semitism in Canada? I know you said that you think it’s a universal challenge, but what would you say to somebody, let’s say an American like me, who’s obnoxious sometimes and says, Hey, Canada, that’s Northern America, isn’t that? And I have colleagues in Canada, they’re like, No, stop being mean.
And and they’re like and I so so what would you s yeah, we don’t deal yeah, no, they’re probably no, you what? They’re they’re probably more polite about it. They’re like, you know but but but they’re unhappy with it. in all seriousness, what what makes the Canadian Jewish community special? What makes it unique? What do you see that is a distinct character trait of the Canadian Jewish community that you’re like, No, no, no, this is not just Northern America.
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. We don’t deal well with meanness. We just crumble and cry. Mm-hmm
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah.
Noam
No this is awesome. This place, this like the Canadian Jewish community is so different. It has so what are those things that make it so special?
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. So I mean, if we go back first and look at the history, you know, the Canadian Jewish community is just a younger Jewish community than the American Jewish community. the majority of our Jewish immigration happened post-World War II, post-Holocaust. so we have a Jewish community that is much more shaped by the history of Europe and has, you know, the experiences from there. And also by being a younger community, is you know, still maybe a little bit less like
assimilated, but I’m gonna touch on that word a little bit more in the Canadian context, and still really holding strong to a Jewish identity because for a lot of us we are
you know, only second or third generation Canadians. and so we do have, you know, in in my living memory, like my grandparents, my my grandmother is is was born in Canada. but my grandfather’s family, you know, we know stories of immigration. We know stories of people coming from from other places, in our, you know, in our living in our living memory, living history.
the other part I think and you can see this as maybe a p there’s positive and negative elements to this, but you know, we are just a far more collectivist society than the US, not just a Jewish community, the entire Canadian community, right? We are very collectivist. I think
a lot of times how that shows up in the Jewish community is maybe in a negative way in that people are maybe a little bit more scared to express an opinion if it goes against the community or be able to speak up about something that maybe they feel that won’t land well with the rest of their synagogue members or or, you know, day school parents or or what the case whatever w
Maytal Kowalski
whatever it may be. but at the same time it means that we really we really care for each other and we really show up for each other. you know, I was I really loved that when you you referenced the attack on the attacks on sub synagogues here in Vancouver, when the Orthodox synagogue was was firebombed it was like a year and a half ago maybe like it was so beautiful just to watch all my different like WhatsApp groups of like lefty Canadian Vancouver
Jews who like don’t really show up at any synagogue and definitely went in an Orthodox synagogue, just all being like, okay, so we’re all going sir to services tonight, right? Because it happened on a Friday morning, right? And it was just like, whatever you were doing tonight, you’re dropping it and you’re showing up at this show and you’re attending services in solidarity. And and and people were so respectful and and really wanted to be there and show up for the community. I thought that that was so beautiful. and then the final piece that I would say is that just the way that we function.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Maytal Kowalski
again, not just in the Jewish community, but societally in Canada, is that we are much more of a multicultural society than a melting pot. So there isn’t as much of a push for us to I use the word assimilate, to assimilate into Canadian culture. There’s more of this push to like
integrate within Canadian culture but while ho still really holding on to our Jewish identity. So we do have more Jews, more Jewish children in Jewish day schools at Jewish summer camp than in the US. we see that Canadian Jews travel to Israel far more often. I think it’s like six the the average Canadian Jewish adult will have traveled to Israel like six or seven times in their life.
Maytal Kowalski
I see it as like a very conscious concerted effort for Canadian Jews to really hold on to their Jewish identity and to show up. I mean, again, not for everybody. Like you said, not everyone is one person can’t represent a a whole country or whole nation, but there is, you know, you see Jews really showing up proudly as Jewish Canadians and holding that Jewish identity kind of at the forefront.
Noam
Okay, I totally understand the Canadian world a little bit better right now. It’s so nice to have such great and how many Jewish Canadians are there? Like a few hundred thousand, right? Is that the number? Three hundred and fifty thousand. Okay. So it’s a it’s a big community. I believe it’s let’s play this game. There’s Israel, there’s the US, and then is it U the UK and then Canada? Is that what it is? A number of Jewish people in their countries?
Maytal Kowalski
There’s like about three three hundred and fifty thousand.
Maytal Kowalski
Good question. I think we’re fourth or fifth. Maybe fifth.
Noam
okay, and and and we’ll you know, we’re seeing like you mentioned there’s some Jew hatred and anti Semitism, but there’s also your remarkable abilities for the community to come together and and do things like that. I wanna I wanna transition from that to maybe a more
provocative or controversial part of our conversation. But let me let me start in in an in an exploratory sort of way. You you identify as a Zionist, correct? What does it mean to be a Zionist?
Maytal Kowalski
Yes.
So for me, very simply I think that Zionism is a project of dreamers. there was a dream when you know, there was a dream for for for a Jewish homeland in our ancestral land.
And once that was accomplished, and now that we have statehood, I do not believe that Zionism then disappears or that Zionism is merely a project. I believe that Zionism is an ideology and a way of life that says we started as dreamers who had a dream that everyone thought was crazy, including a lot of the Jewish community, and we made it happen. So what is my Zionism today? What is my dream today? It’s the same type of thing of saying I’m a diaspora Jew, just as the early Zionists were.
I’m a diaspora Jew. I have a dream for what I see this land of Jewish people being. And I want to relentlessly work towards that. And if people think that I am crazy, too bad Jews have always been countercultural, and especially Zionists have never taken no for an answer. So that’s what that is the continued legacy of Zionism for me.
Noam
So let’s talk about some of the challenges that I’m seeing from the you’re you’re both Zionist and progressive. And I w I I’m I’m gonna make a broad sweeping generalization. That may or may not be true, but it’s something that I feel. And if you feel something, then it is. so that’s that’s that’s facts. So w let me tell you something that I see and feel. What I see and feel is that in the non Jewish world, certainly in America, I am much
Maytal Kowalski
Right, that’s true, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Noam
I am becoming much more fearful of young conservatives who are becoming outside of the Jewish world anti-Israel from this perspective of that the project itself as a whole is something that they are disinterested in, want to separate from, and believe has this un unassailable stranglehold over America and they believe that conspiratorial thinking that you mentioned.
But then I believe in the Jewish side, I believe that it’s young progressives that are moving further and further away from Israel. because they believe that
the Zionism or the Israel that they imagine is not the Zionism or Israel that coincides with their worldview, which is often more dependent and focused on universalism, to use your language, than particularism. And that again, they don’t have to they don’t have to conflict with each other. But when I am taught all of these universal values
Maytal Kowalski
Yep. Yep.
Noam
How is it possible that the current Israeli government that behaves in A, B, and C sort of way, how can I identify with that? How can I support that? So I want to know how you, as a Zionist and as a progressive, how do you help f families who deal with this problem right now? Specifically in the Jewish world, what do you say to parents and to the kids about being both proudly Zionist and proud?
Proudly progressive.
Maytal Kowalski
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it’s a great question. and I do, I have, I mean, I have had that literal exact experience of like because of the age that I’m at and where I sit kind of generationally, where, you know, people who are parents who are, you know, maybe 10, 15 years older than me, but have kids who are asking these questions, they’ll be like, you know, can you come to like can you come over to our Shabbat dinner like can my kids, my kids saying they’re an anti-Zionist, can you come over and convince them not to be an anti-Zionist? And like
No, I can come over for Shabbat dinner and like happy anyone else who wants to s extend an inv invitation, happy to come over. But like, no, that’s not really the way that this is gonna work. but that’s exactly kind of what what touches on your question that I think for far too long, we just kind of said, like, be Zionists.
And we’ve given young people, I think, very few tools to actually define what that is, and then further define what it means for them and how they can grapple with, as you’re saying, some of the things that they’re seeing on the ground and how that just doesn’t mesh with their understanding of what they’ve learned. What does it mean to you
When you see something happen that feels antithetical to Zionism or to your Jewish values, what you know, what does that evoke for you and how would you combat that? You know, I I actually wrote an op-ed a few years ago after doing my first bout of protective presence in the occupied West Bank, protecting Palestinian shepherds in Area C.
Where I talked about being there as a Zionist. I talked about doing protective presence, not despite being a Zionist, but because I am a Zionist. And like I not to like
Toot my own horn. I’m not saying that I’m in fact the exact opposite. I’m not saying that I’m unique in that at all. But I think that voices like mine and others that may feel this way are silenced both from kind of the more mainstream Jewish establishment and from kind of far left progressive anti-Zionist non-Jewish spaces. And so we really have to like make room and open ourselves up to.
Maytal Kowalski
hearing some of these things and having these conversations and and and and you know, I I get that it feels scary and I get that it feels like we’re gonna have to go into something that might make kids ask questions that maybe we would rather not have them asking, but it’s better that they ask it now and grapple through it with us than move into those anti Zionist spaces that you’re talking about, in my opinion.
Noam
So you you you used a term for example right now, the Occupied West Bank, which is an example of a term that I would not use. I would I would call it the West Bank slash Judean Samaria. I would say both of those things because I don’t believe that any heartland of the Jewish people, there is no land that is more Jewish in the world than Judean Samaria. And so therefore, for me, I view the it to be the case, just like Yossey Klein Halevi and Micah Goodman and the like, that the language matters in the sense that, you know, is it the case that Palestinians are
Maytal Kowalski
Yep. Yep.
Noam
under administrative oversight and have a military occupation over them? Absolutely. But is there a l is the land itself occupied? I think that’s like an example of something that I’m like, no, it’s of course it’s not occupied. It is the most Jewish land of all time. But there’s the and this is an example of two of us seeing some something in a different way. The same thing in a different sort of way. And I’m a Zionist who would want to use the language that I use and you’re a Zionist who wants to use the language that you that you use. But let me explain why I from my perspective
Why I think a lot of people are are becoming more and more sensitive, more and more protective, more and more defensive. you tweeted earlier this month in support of Brad Lander, you said saying he’ll be able to keep our community not only safe but thriving, because while fear may be a great short-term motivator, it is not a successful action plan. And when I think of of for speaking, there are many young Jewish people who are in support of Brad Lander, many young Jewish people. And also
Maytal Kowalski
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maytal Kowalski
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Noam
Many young Jewish people, not the majority, but many young Jewish people who were also supportive of Mayor, the mayor of New York City, Mayor Zohran Mamdani. The problem is for a lot of people, pump the brakes for a second, they might say. And the Overton window has now been stretched so far as to now consider ideas that otherwise would never have been part of the Overton window at all. And I’ll name it.
You said you’re a Zionist, and s part of being a Zionist means that the Jewish people have a right to their ancestral homeland. What the border should be, what the policies should be, that’s up for debate. That’s up for dispute. But now what we’re hearing from people like Mamdani is actually, no, I don’t believe that there should necessarily be a Jewish state. Bernie Sanders just said this right now. He actually just said very, very, very recently, and I’ll I’ll quote the idea from you, he said on Meet the Press yesterday that
He was asked if if Israel should exist as a Jewish state and he evaded the question completely. I never thought that these would be part of reasonable debates. And now you’re having mainstream leaders in American society saying, you know what, maybe, maybe there shouldn’t be a Jewish day. I don’t know. And that leads people to circle the wagons more, become way more defensive, and that sort of, you know, dispossession of the the the
the of the Jewish people having their own state. If it’s if you understand that there they are a people, not just a religion, then I think a lot of people say, you know what, like this is becoming untenable. my Zionism’s gonna become more particularistic. My Zionism’s gonna become more defensive. My Zionism’s be gonna become more protective of my people. How would you take all of this into consideration and deal with this issue of there has to be some protectiveness and defensiveness
Noam
When people are now saying things that otherwise would have been outside the Overton window and now it’s is it part of it?
Maytal Kowalski
no, it’s such a good question. And let me just comment on a few of the different things that you brought up because it was like a super simple question. So I should get through it in thirty seconds. But so first of all, the Occupied West Bank versus Judean Samaria. I actually think that it’s so important that if you and I were in conversation like this, you know, with people,
Noam
Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
more time talking about it, whatever. I think it would be so important for you every time you reference it to say Judean Samaria, you dava Shimron, and for me to say occupied West Bank, because it shows that there are two truths. There are two different ways that folks see this space. And we can be in conversation together. And we can continue to have a conversation and worry less about the specific language that we’re using, but the goals that we are trying to get towards. So I, you know, I yeah.
Noam
Fair, but but just to clarify, I say West I do say the West Bank. I say the West Bank. Okay. Okay, fine. Continue, sorry.
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, fair.
So, okay, so I love that on this podcast about Canadian Jewry, we’re gonna talk about American politics. It just you guys can’t help it, I know. No, no, no, but no, I think look, I think, I think the examples you’re bringing up we don’t quite see here yet. And I think that it’s very important that we do look at them and think about them because I think that they are going to come here and they are starting to come here. So I think that it’s really important to talk about. So look, the first thing that I I’ll say a couple things. The question about the Jewish state.
Noam
Well, you could talk about it in the Canadian context. You feel free.
Maytal Kowalski
Again, this needs to come from us as Jews and Zionists, where we need to define what we mean when we say Jewish state. Because if what we mean by Jewish state is a theocratic, autocratic state that is a state only for Jews, much like what is proposed and what actually exists now in the 2018 nation state law in Israel, I think that probably we wouldn’t support that either.
I th or at least many of us in the Jewish community would not support that either. I think that if we talk about a Jewish state as a secure, democratic and Jewish state that is a homeland for the Jews and provides equal rights for all of its citizens, then yes, there should be no question that we should able be able to say, Yes, I support that Jewish state. But it is in fact the Israeli government that that has and not just this Israeli government, but successive Israeli government.
Who have been really loathed to define what it means when we say Jewish state. So I would like to, again, to your point about the preciseness of language, I think a better way to hold these politicians’ feet to the fire. And like sometimes we are kind of like allowing them to get the exact sound bite that we want. And it’s so frustrating because if it were me in front of Mamdani or in front of Sanders, I would say exactly what I just said, right? Do you support a secure, democratic, and Jewish state?
with an independent Palestinian state alongside it, that is a state of the Jewish people, but not necessarily the Jewish religion, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And if they couldn’t say yes to that, well then we have a problem. But right now in our vagueness, it works in our favor, but it also works against us for those who are already opposed to us and it’s not h it’s not helping convert anyone. And to get back to your that kind of goes to the Brad Lander thing that where I think that Lander is
Noam
Right.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Maytal Kowalski
Very helpful and is an example of the allyship that I was talking about earlier. Is that that is someone that can say those exact things and who can forge allyships and have political relationships and friendships with folks like Mamdani, like Sanders, and show up and say, Look, I am a Zionist, but I I want to be in allyship with you and I want to be in communication with you. And can we
Can’t you know, can we actually talk this through? Can we think about this a little bit more? We see that, you know, Mamdani kept Jessica Tisch as the NYPD commissioner. Great, great move. And a lot of that came from influences like Brad Lander. The mainstream Jewish community, who just kind of like kicks and screams from the outside and acts more and more like loyal o opposition from the outside as opposed to an ally from within, would not, I believe, been able to convince Mamdani to to make such a
To make such such a political move so early in his in his mayoral period. So like that’s where this is really important, that it’s not about it’s about being able to say, how do I hold on to my own identity, but be open enough to yours and your ideology that we can be in conversation and we can help each other move together. And the problem is that if we don’t do that.
Noam
Uh-huh.
Maytal Kowalski
I agree with you about your concerns about how the Overton window is shifting. But the fact of the matter is, if we don’t do that, if we’re not showing up in those conversations, if we’re not building allyships that may feel uncomfortable to us or may contain narratives that feel foreign to us, all we’re gonna see is the overton window shifting more and more. And we have a short period of time to have the conversations that we need to have. And I do worry that we are not having them nearly enough.
Noam
Uh-huh.
Noam
Fine. So basically what your argument is that it’s less about the content than it is about the sh the tactics and strategy of being willing to work with the person. Meaning because you you are a proud Zionist, so I would assume that that when people are anti Zionist, you would have a serious problem with that. And anti Zionist means the the opposition to the existence of a Jewish state that is secure and democratic, right? So this is becomes this becomes the real challenge. I I want to quote something back from Canada. I want to end with this. The Prime Minister Mark Carney.
He announced a ministerial advisory council on rights, equality, and inclusion. And a lot of people were critical of this move and said it doesn’t do enough to address anti-Semitism specifically. It also didn’t really address the issue of anti-Zionism. And you said another quote from the Great Maytal, I think that it is a mistake to say that it is Israel or anti Zionism or the war in Gaza or what is happening now in Lebanon or Iran that is causing the rise of anti Semitism.
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah. Yeah.
Noam
Well, how else would you explain the huge jump in anti Semitic acts since the october seventh? And do you worry that that position minimizes what Jewish communities in Canada are going through?
Maytal Kowalski
So I think that every time that there is a uptick in anti-Semitism that we see as tied that that is tied, that is absolutely tied to what is happening in Israel-Palestine, is it is more so an excuse for those who are already anti-Semitic or would fall into anti-Semitic tendencies and conspiracies to
have those validated and be able to express those with fewer consequences. and so that is also why I push back on like I hate when I hear people say, I mean I understand it, but I don’t like it when people say like, well, anti-Semitism, like look at what Netanyahu’s doing. So of course there’s more anti-Semitism. He needs to stop doing these things so that people stop being anti-Semitic. And like, you know, that’s the flip side of that coin, which I also don’t agree with. I don’t think that anti-Semitism it
Noam
Well I think that that that’s a that’s a really nasty thing to say. I mean on social media people will say to me when I’m talking about a random topic, they’ll be like, Hey, if if Zionists stopped being such horrible people, maybe you guys wouldn’t experience such anti Semitism in America. I’m like, What the what was that? Like that to me feels like incredibly anti Semitic comment to me.
Maytal Kowalski
Right. Right. Right. And like this is
Yeah, no, that’s that’s exactly what I’m saying. Like, and I I you know, anti-Semitism is the fault of anti-Semites. Anti-Semitism is not the fault it is not the fault of a war in Gaza or the decisions of the Netanyahu government, but those things give cover to anti-Semites to be able to s express these ideas and have them gain some sort of legitimacy. And so the question and and I think, you know, this is we’re kind of at the end of time and this is such a bigger thing to get into, but you know, I think that one of the things that we also need to do a better job.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Maytal Kowalski
At is like we do this thing oftentimes in the kind of organized Jewish community where we at once say, Jews and Israel are separate, and we can’t talk about Jews at Jews as a part of Israel or Israel as a part of Jews, and we say Israel is intrinsically a part of Jewish identity. So when you say something about Israel, it is being anti-Semitic. We have we it can’t be both. We need to untangle that. I actually always say like
Yeah, I am actually tied to Israel. Not just because I personally am tied to Israel, I am, but look, our community is. Whether it’s because that’s where we face when we say our prayers or because we made Aliyah and we live there, us as Jewish people, those of us who identify as Jews, we are tied to a practice and a people and a religion that exists on a land where there is now a nation state for Jewish people.
And we just need to think through that more of what that means, how we talk about it, and then how we help our politicians and our would-be allies and our and our fellow members of society think about these things you know, in a little bit more of a nuanced way. Because I can also say I just last night had a conversation with a person who it was their first time hearing that the idea of Zionism meant different things to different people.
They just thought Zionism meant ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from all the land and you know Jewish supremacy. and it was truly the first time that they had heard that different people can hold different types of Jewish identities and or Zionist identities. And and those you’re not gonna change the world one-on-one, but you should start trying.
Noam
Well, you’ll definitely change the world you’ll definitely change that person’s world one on one, is what I was gonna say. So, you know, and and I’m obsessed with this concept of spectrum of allies right now, which is like who are the people that you actually have that I actually have influence over? we tend to we tend to believe it’s people that are on the other side of political aisles. The truth is the the best way to make an impact.
Maytal Kowalski
I hope so. Mm-hmm.
Noam
Is with people who are as like-minded as you as possible, but see something differently about that specific issue. So trying for from an American lens, if a Democrat tries to convince a Republican of something, it’s just a l a little bit of a silly, silly project. It’s just not it’s very unlikely to happen. But if you have similar world views, then then that’s that’s where you’re able to actually make the biggest difference. Where you have passive al it’s called pa active allies, passive allies, neutral, passive opponents, and active opponents. And
Maytal Kowalski
percent.
Noam
that’s from this book right here. Boom. Don’t Talk About Politics. so but yeah, the the listen, these are really, really difficult topics and I wanted to be able to model having Metal on the podcast where we could speak to each other about these ideas, see them a little bit differently from each other, but still hear each other and model that sort of conversation. and hopefully we did a decent job of that, because I think the world needs a heck of a lot more of that.
Noam
Maytal, thank you so much for joining me on Wondering Jews and good luck with all of your work. Thank you so much.
Maytal Kowalski
Yeah.
Maytal Kowalski
Thank you so much, Noam. It’s been a pleasure.