Mijal
Coming up, on Wondering Jews:
Jeremy Leibler
I think most Australians, the overwhelming majority, really saw Bondi as an attack on Australia.
Noam
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal
I’m Mijal.
Noam
And I’m Noam, and this podcast is our way of trying to unpack those really big questions being asked in the world today about Israel, about Judaism, and about the Jewish experience. We’ve spent a lot of time focused on subjects that mainly, though not exclusively, have involved Jews in North America. We’ve spoken about anti-Semitism in the US. We’ve spoken about movements and denominations within the Jewish religious practice.
Noam
We’ve spoken about the Jewish American experience through Jewish American Heritage Month in May. So we really wanted to take some time to ask, what is it like to belong to a Jewish community in places outside of North America or Israel? What makes these communities amazing, resilient, different, unique, whatever? What what challenges are they facing? Who are their allies?
Mijal
We’re gonna be asking all these questions. I know I’m especially excited about this as somebody who wasn’t born in America and I’m always comparing between different Jewish communities. And one community that we really wanted to take a close look at is the one in Australia. People might not know this, but Australia has the highest population per capita of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel, despite being just half a percent of Australia’s total population. So joining us to tell the story of these numbers to understand Australia Australian Jewry better at this moment is Jeremy Leibler.
The president of the Zionist Federation of Australia.
Noam
Welcome, Jeremy.
Noam
Awesome to have you here. we are incredibly excited to have this conversation with you. Very serious conversation. I hope ’cause it’s gonna be instructive, educational. I’m gonna learn a lot. I met you four years ago, I think it is. I met you at your Shabbat table on a Friday night, and I remember being a an incredibly special gathering with all different types of people at that table, like a unique type of group that was at that table.
I also remember the lamb chops. They were excellent. They were exquisite. They were some of the best I’ve ever had. but I I you it’s it’s not Jeremy, it’s his wife. It’s his wife. It’s his wife, by the way. So but I I wanna I wanna not talk to you just about lamb chops and about the Shabbat that we had four years ago together. But what we wanna talk to you about is
Mijal
No I’m you’re making me wanna, you know, go to Jeremy for his
Jeremy Leibler
You’re welcome. We’d love to have you. True.
Mijal
I I don’t assume anything, you know.
Noam
The story of Australia and the story of Australian Jewry. It was it it it in the news in a different sort of way after December of this past year, after the Bondi Beach massacre. But I know from my work in Australia that Australia is a special community, a different sort of community. So I want you to tell us a little bit about like what is the Australian Jewish community like? What’s the history of it?
And then let and then let’s get into why Australia and Australia Jewry has been in the news recently.
Jeremy Leibler
Sure. so thanks again for having me. And you know, I I’ll start just start with that Friday night because I also remember that as a really unique sort of evening around the table with amazing Jewish educators from all around the world coming from all sorts of different places, and there was a real energy. And you know, we spoke about a lot of really interesting matters that night, challenges facing the Jewish world, and it’s quite bizarre to think if we were having that conversation today, we probably would not be touching on any of the same subject matters, just in terms of the priorities today. So it’s a reminder of how how things have have moved very quickly.
But perhaps just starting with a bit of a history of the Australian Jewish community. So we are very much a post-Holocaust Jewish community. we have the highest proportion of Holocaust survivors per capita outside of Israel, any any other country in the world. And in in so many ways, that informed and shaped how this community evolved. On my mother’s side,
They came after the Holocaust. my my my mother was born in 1945. She was the second youngest, sort of in a cellar just as at the end of the war. and they came with six, well, at the time with seven surviving children, and she had siblings out of eleven. And on my father’s side, they came just before the war on one of the last boats out of Belgium. My grandmother sort of really
Saw the warning signs and insisted they leave. And so we all grew up here sitting around a shop table with survivors.
I can’t really overestimate the extent to which growing up in that environment informed everything that we did, how institutions in this country, Jewish institutions, grew and evolved. you know, we have, as you know, now we have a very strong Jewish day school network, more than 50% of of school aged children are in Jewish day schools. All of these institutions were built.
By that generation of Holocaust survivors. what it really did was it created a generation of Australian Jews who grew up with a sense of purpose and meaning. And I think overall that that is what explains the underlying strength of this community.
Noam
Yeah. I mean I I see it firsthand every day with our work at Unpacked. I when we talk about the work in Australia in general, the team at Unpact has like this almost like this obsession with Australia. It’s got this over saturation, over indexing in terms of people who watch Israel content, learn Israel content, listen to Israel content, but it felt felt to me like there was like this pride in the Judaism, a pride even in your name. Your name is the ZFA or Z F A as we say in America here.
Look, what is behind the name ZFA and is there an analogue in the US that you could think of? Because we don’t have this same concept of like the Zionist Federation of Australia leading like the Zion the the Jewish educ like t talk to us about that before we get to the anti Semitism.
Jeremy Leibler
Look, it’s very it is very unique. you know, there are Zionist federations, there’s the American Zionist movement, but they they they play a really fundamentally different role than we do. You know, we are yeah, we’re really one of two two elected representative roof bodies of the Jewish community. So we touch on not just Jewish education, which we’re intimately involved in, and and youth movements and Jewish student groups, and you know, we Ospas Massa and Taglit, Birthright, and Israel all pretty much all Israel programs post high school. But we’re also very heavily involved in Israel advocacy.
Noam
Totally different. Totally different.
Jeremy Leibler
In a political sense. And I think the fact that there’s it’s it’s the Zionist Federation that plays that role, and this is coming out, which I’m sure we’ll get to in the Royal Commission that’s going on now in Australia into anti Semitism. Israel plays a an absolutely central role in the Jewish identity of Australian Jews in a way that I don’t, I’m not sure it would be easy to comprehend, let’s say, for American Jewry, where of course there’s a strong Zionist.
community, but I’m not sure it is it is the foundation of identity in the same way here.
Jeremy Leibler
And I think you know, the way I sort of explained this in the context of the Royal Commission or to the broader public was that Australian Jews have lived in this country, and our our our comfort in this country was based upon two fundamental covenants. The first was that
Jeremy Leibler
This country gave us safety, security, prosperity, opportunity. And in return, we would contribute back to this country. And Australian Jews, similar to in the United States, have overwhelmingly, you know, played disproportionate role in the arts, in academia, in the law. And I think the other covenant, it was sort of there was a duality to the second covenant. It’s part of that covenant was with the state of Israel. It was that while we we always felt safe in this country, we knew that ultimately the promise of Israel was the Jews would never, ever, ever be homeless. And wondering Jews again,
With nowhere to go. and that ultimately, even all the way in Australia, we knew that Israel ultimately is not just the protector of people that live in Israel, but of all the Jewish people. And in many ways, that covenant was shattered by Israel on the 7th of October. and the other element of that that covenant was with our own government here in Australia, that it would recognize and always did recognize the central role that Israel plays in our identity.
Not not in terms of every decision of an Israeli government, but that we would always have from both sides of government support for the legitimacy of Israel, its existence, but also as part of who we are as Australian Jews. And I think that covenant in both in respect of Israel and Australia really was shattered on the seventh of October. And that in part explains a lot of how we feel as Jews.
Mijal
So I know that I’m I wanna learn more about, you know, how the the covenants were shattered, beyond beyond the headlines. But let me just as you were speaking, I I had this realization and I I wanna make sure that I that I check in with you if I understand it correctly. I’ve thought a lot about like the narratives of like American Jewry, right? Like what have been the dreams and nightmares that drove Jews to America and what has America represented. also like, you know, Israel and like many other countries.
And I think part of what you’re making me realize is that the dreams and nightmares that founded the Jewish community in Australia are very much like post-Holocaust. In a l in a way that you can’t say that about American Jewry. Like American Jewry was really like the masses of American Jewry, which we’re gonna use as a comparison point. But most American Jews came way before the Holocaust and they established an identity in America. And then they had to grapple with their lack of
you know, of ability to to really help European Jewry. But it’s very different than a community that is founded on by survivors.
Mijal
I’ll just add one one small thing as somebody who wasn’t born in America that’s good for us to keep in mind. you know, no, I’m especially in this series in which we are really seeking to shrink the Jewish world and understand each other. there’s some things that I that I would argue are unique to America and that many other diaspora communities like I I was born in Argentina, Jeremy, I lived in Uruguay, and there’s probably some similarities between like my Zionist community in Montevideo where I spent my childhood and Australia.
In a way that the US is the exception, but because the US is so central, we we tend to always be like, Well, America versus this vers in instead of saying, Well, America is actually the exception to the rule of global jury, in which, you know. So I’m I’m just naming that as something for us to keep in the back of our minds.
Noam
But eva I I love that point, Mijal. That’s such a great point. And even that though, that’s the that’s like the American exceptionalism and that’s like that’s part of that worldview. But and and people are wondering whether or not that American exceptional that American exceptionalism is being shattered right now also. That may you know, that maybe that we we Americans are are part of the world in a way that we don’t even realize.
Mijal
I know, I know.
Mijal
Right, right, right. And and we should also like I would say this like as part of like the American Empire, always remember that like we we assume that our standards are the world’s. But yeah, sorry, that was just like a little
Jeremy Leibler
You know, one of our pet pet complaints, you know, for Australian Jewish leaders being involved in any global Jewish events, Jewish agency, the World Zionist Organization, is, you know, people, particularly the American Jews, forget that we’re on a different time zone here in Australia, right? So I have calls scheduled at two in the morning and three in the morning. And you know, I wish I wish this wasn’t because thank you. No, I I appreciate that. And I think
Mijal
Ha.
Ha ha.
Noam
that’s w that that’s why we’re doing this late at night in in the morning for you. That’s why we’re doing this.
Jeremy Leibler
But but I think, you know, there really has been a shift. And sadly, I wish it wasn’t because of an explosion of anti-Semitism in this country. But you know, we just had this amazing visit from a group of American Jewish leaders, mainly from the Federations, you know, really across the United States. It was a like a Bondi solidarity visit and they spent three, four days in Sydney toured, you know, the community really and and I was just, you know, I was really moved by the experience because I think there’s been a recognition in the Jewish world globally. perhaps before we didn’t feel that we really needed each other in the same way that we feel we need each other now.
We feel connected now in a way that we didn’t feel connected before. And some of those differences, I think, are just falling away because at the end of the day, yes, there are definitely differences and we need different approaches in different communities, but fundamentally we’re all diaspora Jews trying to find, I guess, the the role that we can play in the story of the Jewish people. And that there are I think there’s a lot more that we have in common than we than we have apart.
Mijal
So Jeremy, what I wanna ask a little bit, I I just as somebody who who reads the headlines, of of course I know about the Bondi massacre and just some you know, the the Royal Commission that we’re gonna learn a little bit more about. But could you tell us a little bit again, as if we don’t know too much, ’cause I mean I I certainly don’t know so much, but I’ve heard reports, you know, anti Semitism is really bad in Australia. and I don’t actually know what that means.
I so I would just love to to understand what that looks like. My comparison point is you know, I live in the US. but if you can just our listeners come from all over, tell us a little bit about what things have been like.
Jeremy Leibler
Growing up, I you know, I really very rarely experienced anti-Semitism. It was not, if anything.
You know, I would look at, you know, my the generation above me, my my parents, grandparents, the the the survivor generation, who many of them, even though they were very grateful and and and and and for for what Australia gave them and felt part of this country, they never really, and I think this is common with Holocaust survivors, they never really felt that anti-Semitism had disappeared. And they felt that it was always there lurking under the surface. And we we my generation in many ways was dismissive of this.
We’d go to the football wearing a kippah. We would be very openly Jewish, nice, you know, applying for jobs at university. It really never felt like anything. If anything, to be I felt proud and I didn’t feel like it was a d disadvantage. Occasionally you’d have a comment here and there on the street, but in the same way, you know, during a sporting game, someone might call, you know, someone else something else. It didn’t feel like Jews were targeted. And we also had very clear
Leadership at the government level, at institutional level, support. And I think after the 7th of October, it wasn’t overnight, but when we had this, you know, this collective trauma that we experienced and observed after the 7th of October, and we we I think it felt like death by a thousand cuts. It started, it started with even within the first few days, I think, you know, the scenes at the Opera House. The Opera House was lit up.
By the government in blue and white in solidarity with Israel on the 9th of October. That night, you know, several hundred pro-Palestinian protests, arrived for a protest. And they were burning Israeli flags and chanting.
Noam
I remember that.
Jeremy Leibler
Was there’s some debate around originally it was it was gas the Jews, and then some of the recordings suggest it was F the Jews or Where are the Jews? It doesn’t really matter which one it was, but it two days after the worst attack on on the Jewish world since the Holocaust, there were Australians chanting where are the Jews or F the Jews or Gas the Jews at the Opera House. And
Mijal
By the way, Jeremy, I I’ve of course read about this, but now after hearing you and just understanding that the community is like a post Holocaust community, like the the psychological like I I don’t think I realize, right, the psychological effect of a community that’s mostly shaped by, you know, a post Holocaust community to hear gas the Jews. Like I I again I read this but like I didn’t get it.
Noam
Right and hearing it’s it’s the highest number of Holocaust survivors per capita outside of Israel.
Mijal
That’s insane.
Jeremy Leibler
Look, I I I recall, you know, one of the most sort of moments. I mean there were lots of few of these moments, but one of the moments after the seventh of October, in that immediate week or two that I’ll never forget was I’d been doing a huge amount of media and already some of them it some of it was already starting to get very confrontational and difficult. And I had a
Pretty aggressive interview on one of the mainstream channels. And my aunt, who is a child survivor of Auschwitz, now in her in her 90s, she called me as I was on my way to the first sort of rally vigil for hostages. And she said, you know, I watched your interview, she wanted to thank you, but she said, I cannot believe, and I never thought that.
I would see people chanting at the time, we thought it was Gas the Jews, Gas the Jews in Australia that gave me everything. and that that really that summed it up. And I think, you know, that even that that phone call from her, you know, I think had a had a really long-term impact on how, you know, in a s in a psychological sense, how I sort of absorbed and responded for those months ahead and after the 7th of October.
Mijal
Jeremy, part of what you’re showing, I mean, it’s it’s really illuminating. Let me ask one more clarifying question just to understand. I think in the US, again, my comparison point, October seventh changed everything, but also a lot of what happened, th there were signs, like if I look at my source sheets and my topics for lectures, already years beforehand, like I’ve begun talking about anti Semitism. Twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, it became like
an important topic and we already felt like an erosion in many areas, whether it was like at university, you know, progressive spaces, discourse around race and privilege, like a whole bunch of things that were there before October seventh. And then October seventh was like, my gosh, this is like really bad. But but it was there before. Is that something that that you also felt in Australia or was October seventh really what made it made anti Semitism something that was
prominent and central and you know to be taken very seriously.
Jeremy Leibler
So I look, I think the experience is very similar. I mean, we did a survey before 7th of October of experiences of Jewish students on campuses because I was anecdotally having Jewish students come to me saying how uncomfortable they feel in lecture theaters and instances of anti-Semitism. And when I’d go and talk to the universities about it, they’d say, it’s terrible, but we don’t have a problem here. So we went and did a proper survey to get the data and the statistics were already then. Sixty-eight percent
of Jewish students had hidden their Jewish identity on campus out of fear of anti-Semitism. But I think, you know, I think the way I would describe it is that anti-Semitism, you know, I was wrong and my that generation was right. It never goes away. It was simmering under the surface surface. I think the extent of, you know, six million Jews being murdered was enough to push it under the surface for a while. And after the 7th of October and these false accusations of genocide and Zionist baby killers,
Just gave them the license for it to rise above the surface. In many ways, the parts of the Jewish communities that were the most traumatized were not the ones that were like sort of institutionalized Jews. In many ways, it was Jews who were incredibly successful in business, in the arts, that had fully, fully integrated and felt like they had a seat at the table in this country. And then suddenly after the 7th of October, they had this realization: my God. And that manifested itself as people who, you know, families in philanthropy that had supported arts organizations, or particular artists who were then completely excluded, doxxed, rejected.
distanced. We experienced this, you know, through my in my my my my ZFA role as a lay leader on my day job is I’m a lawyer. We do a lot of work in the arts and in progressive spaces in for in terms of our pro bono philanthropy work and we felt it as a Jewish law firm.
Jeremy Leibler
In a sense, the orthodox part of the community perhaps always felt they never felt a hundred percent comfortable and at ease. But I think those that were really operating as part of society as an Australian got a rude awakening and and that trauma is still there.
Noam
So the what what I’m hearing and I and maybe this is a little bit too of a direct question, but was the seventh of October more shocking to you than the Bondi Beach massacre? Like meaning it was your reaction it sounds to me like the seventh of October w it w like it in even though you’re you’re you live I mean, I know you live in Melbourne and this took place in Sydney, but it was it w was d did October seventh change
ch change everything for you in a different way than December fourteenth or December fifteenth.
Jeremy Leibler
I I felt after the seventh of October, I felt both personally but also as a Jewish leader. I felt for the first time, it almost felt for me everything up until then was a little bit of a game. It wasn’t real. It was it was pretend, you know, when your kids play, you know, fantasy. It was we were playing. We were playing as Jewish leaders, we were playing when we were dealing with government, we were playing when we’d give a speech on an issue because
You know, things are pretty good here. You know, yes, there’s some problems, there’s some this, but Israel’s strong, diaspora Jewelry’s strong, we’re thriving, we’ve got some problems. But you know, it didn’t and after the seventh of October, everything, like this was the real this was the real thing now. Things mattered. There were consequences.
And I felt like I knew what to do after Bondi.
Jeremy Leibler
I I I it just it felt on the one hand it was a shock, on the other hand it wasn’t because everyone had been saying this something like this was inevitable, but it also felt completely hopeless. you know it had happened, these people had been murdered.
It was all loss and it was not clear to me what we could what we could take from
Mijal
I’m I’m sitting with that. That’s
Mijal
It’s really hard. Jeremy, you you mentioned that I forgot exactly the word that you said that that there was something about like the the everybody expected something like this would happen. And I think this might have been this is part of if you can tell us a little bit about those conversations and I I think they also probably have a key role in the government creating a Royal Commission on anti Semitism and Social Cohesion after Bondi. So can you tell us a little bit about that?
Jeremy Leibler
Yeah. So look on the one hand, I I could point to many interviews or discussions that I and other Jewish leaders had, you know, as we saw weekly protests of the streets of Melbourne and Sydney with chance of globalising the interfada and from the river to the sea, and all Zionists are terrorists, and death death to the IDF, and all of these other inflammatory chants.
Jeremy Leibler
And so we did we did see something coming. That being said, I don’t know if hand on heart, if you asked me, if someone had said, What are the chances of something like this happening on Bondi Beach? it’s still there’s a bit of a disconnect there. I don’t know if I really internalize that this is something that could happen in Australia, even though rationally we we were saying this is inevitable.
Mijal
Right. Right. And what what what is this Royal Commission? It was created to to examine how
Jeremy Leibler
So the Royal Commission is, and this is the first anywhere in the world, it’s it’s an incredibly power, it’s an independent inquiry, it’s being led by a high court, a former high court judge, and it’s got enormous legal powers. It can compel anyone to give evidence, it can compel the permission of documents from institutions, from government. And look, this is no government wants a Royal Commission court under their watch because it puts them under enormous scrutiny. And this government did not either, and it was resisted for some time. But after Bondi,
what was quite unbelievable. And I think in part it, you know, it’s interesting you talked about the attack at the Tree of Life synagogue. And I wonder sometimes, would we be having a Royal Commission and would we have the reaction that we had if this same attack had happened on a synagogue? As distinct from Bondi Beach? You know, I think the fact that this Well, I think to the ordinary Australian, you know, if it had been in a Jewish school or a Jewish, you know, a synagogue, I I I I just wonder if
Mijal
Was like a symbol of
Jeremy Leibler
I think most Australians, the overwhelming majority, really saw Bondi as an attack on Australia. And you know, some some parts of the Jewish community feel confronted by that because they say, well, why don’t they acknowledge it’s about the Jewish community? I’m like, well, it is about the Jewish community, but it’s about Australia because we are Australians. It’s that dual identity. And Bondi, iconic nature of Bondi Beach. there be their the campaign after Bondi really was not just by the Jewish community. We had sporting personalities sign petitions.
Calling on the Prime Minister to call this Royal Commission. We had, you know, former Olympic champions, Australian Olympic champions, the business world, everyone really came in, not just the Jewish community. And I think in part that’s why the government ultimately relented and called it, to their credit. And we’re about halfway through at the moment. So what the way that it works is it’s going to take a year. The commission has to hand down a report with recommendations by the anniversary of Bondi, which will be this December.
and there are different hearing blocks. It’s sort of like a courtroom. And the hearing blocks that we’ve heard is lived experiences. so anyone can make a submission. We’ve had the most over I think close to 15,000 submissions have been made to the Royal Commission, more than any other Royal Commission in the history of Australia. So when we’ve had Royal Commissions into sexual abuse into the banking sector, it was well, well, well below. So I think that reflects the extent to which this is a real issue.
Mijal
Wow.
Jeremy Leibler
In this country and felt by the Jewish community. And I think so far it’s been quite cathartic. You know, members of the Jewish community, from educators, academics, and also non-Jewish members that work in Jewish institutions or have observed what has been going on, have had an opportunity to make their submissions, to give evidence and to tell their stories. And I think so far that’s been a very powerful experience.
Noam
I heard I I I heard I mean I I I was gonna ask you what impact seeing hunt the what what impact with so many people watching these testimonies, what impact it’s had on the community
Mijal
wait, no I mean this is happening live that people are watching. Like I I don’t know this enough. This is like
Jeremy Leibler
So it’s streamed, yes, it’s it’s it’s all of the hearings other than some in relation to security, which for you know national security reasons are redacted, are streamed live and it’s it received an enormous it was the front page of the newspapers almost every day for two weeks during the first hearing.
Mijal
Okay. Wow.
Noam
Right. So what so so what impact did it have on people watching in the community? Were you said people were it was cathartic, it was it was positive. What was the reaction?
Jeremy Leibler
It’s it’s a good question. I’m not sure I I I I have a clear answer on that. I think it was definitely cathartic for the people that had an opportunity to tell their story. I think it was cathartic for the community as a whole, because we’ve felt fundamentally since the 7th of October gaslit when talking about anti-Semitism, it was played down, it was dismissed, and it became harder for people to do that after Bondi. But at the same time, and I can tell you, you know, I’d heard and was aware of most of these stories, but sitting there for a week or two listening day after day to
Noam
Okay.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Leibler
these stories from experiences of kids in a in a school to a university to doctors and nurses, I think it did send people down this rabbit hole to see anti Semitism everywhere they looked.
and that’s a real risk and a challenge for us.
Mijal
You know, it’s it’s interesting. I’m I’m just like thinking, have we had anything like this in the US? And I think part of we’ve had some like, you know, congressional hearings and things in Congress, but they often become like partisan like it’s like part of like partisan warfare. So it’d be like one side of the aisle, kind of like leading it to accuse the other side. And so part of it is helpful and part of it is like, you know. let me ask a very cynical question, Jeremy, and I don’t know enough.
is there trust in this former judge? is there trust in this system that it will both take into account what is happening in a fair way? And then like a second part of my question is I don’t know enough about the demographic makeup of Australia and whether some of the rising anti-Semitism and protest also lives inside very big questions around
you know, immigration and, you know, assimilation in society and all of that. And sometimes there could be a lot of recommendations, but it’s like, do you actually have the the social ability and willpower to work through certain questions that are not just about anti Semitism, but are really about how we live together, you know, in in in liberal democratic societies when you have rising fundamentalism within it. So so that was like, you know, I’m curious
Jeremy Leibler
Yeah. So that’s a great, they’re great questions. great questions. Look, I think there was a lot of skepticism before it began. for the reasons you say we’ve gas-lit a senso, you know, i i they’re not really going to hold anyone to account. And you know, we thought that there was a very real concern, you know, effectively the you know, the equivalent of Jewish voices for peace or whatever they’re called. You we’ve got they’re called Jewish Council of Australia here.
know would be given effectively standing as if they represent a significant proportion of Jews. This is like, you know, explicitly anti-Zionist groups. Yeah. And I I think that as the first hearing block or two played out, I think that was I think people felt a lot more comfortable and those concerns were were sort of started to to go away. And in part it was because you could not deny
Mijal
So it’d be like an anti Zionist Australian group, right.
Jeremy Leibler
Every virtually every single lived experience demonstrated the way in which this obsessive demonization obsession with Israel and the use of Zionist as a proxy for Jew is where anti-Semitism has manifested itself since the 7th of October. It’s undeniable. And I think it became very clear from the commissioner’s questions and the way that they approached the examination and cross-examination of witnesses.
You know, for example, they adopted the IRA definition for the purposes of the commission. So I think all of these things have have actually given the Jewish community a lot more confidence. That being said, it depends on one’s expectation. If your expectation is that the Royal Commission is going to eradicate anti-Semitism in this country, you’re going to be disappointed. But if your hope is that it will shine a light for many people to see what has gone on in this country where previously they refused to acknowledge it or couldn’t see it.
I think it will achieve that and I think it’s achieving that. I don’t yet we don’t know what the recommendations will be. We don’t know if they’ll be implemented yet. And so all they are all question marks. but I’m hopeful I’m not I can’t tell you that I can guarantee you, but I’m hopeful that this will be this will result in some positive change. But it’s not going to be the solution to our problems either.
Noam
Jeremy, I have a question and a plug. My question is Hona Dodge, who works for Unpacked and comes to Australia often used to be at Leibler Yavna College. he used to teach at the school. And he told me that there is a an influx or he’s heard that there’s an influx of people from the religious Zionist community leaving Australia to go to Israel.
Is that something that you could substantiate the but as a as a result of all of this in Australia? Or or is that not something that’s actually happening?
Jeremy Leibler
So look, we are seeing a huge increase in the number because we one of the things we do is also aliyah. We facilitate aliyah. So we’re seeing a huge increase in the number of file aliyah applications and files opened. The numbers of those that have actually gone are higher, but not, it’s not double or triple, but the number of files opened are. And I think what I’d obser I’d have I I would observe, and this is a part of the community that I come from, so I know many people who are looking at this. It’s not people who are just running away from anti-Semitism.
Mijal
Mm.
Jeremy Leibler
it it is people who ideologically always had hoped or planned and wanted to live in Israel. and it’s all usually a couple of different factors, and it’s not that they’re fear for their physical safety because of Bondi, but they no longer feel comfortable and they they are starting to question whether or not their children will be able to live fully open Jewish lives in this country in the way that we did.
And I think that is a legitimate concern, to be honest. When I grew up, it would never have occurred to me to be concerned about putting the fact that I went to a Jewish day school or I spent a gap year in Israel on my CV when I go for job applications. And young people now are thinking about these things. And we’re also seeing an amazing explosion in young lone soldiers serving in the IDF. it’s a reflection of, I mean, I think it’s a pretty unbelievable reflection of of this community.
the education system and it’s something that I’m amaz incredibly proud of. I actually think if you ask me the one positives we talked about positives early on. I’m most inspired by these young Australian Jews who could just stay and live a very comfortable life here and who feel that they can see their contemporaries in Israel making enormous sacrifices. and you know we talked about finding their role in the story of the Jewish people and for some of them
That’s how it manifests itself. And both for them and their parents, that’s something that I’m incredibly inspired.
Noam
It’s very special. I want to give you my plug now, Jeremy. My plug is that one of the things I do hope that emerges from this Royal Commission is a change in the education system in Australia. And what I mean by that is in the US, this there wasn’t a Royal Commission that took place, but there is an organization, ConnectED, that is that’s part of open door media, that goes into non-Jewish schools and we have deep relationships with all the top non-Jewish schools, top independent schools.
across the US, across New York, across LA, everywhere. And I I just think that Australia from all of the i I told you I’ve like this very close relationship to Australia, even though it’s thousands of miles away. Speak to your leaders all the time. And I’m just like, guys, like we have to change the education in the independent schools in Australia to include a better job at doing dialogue across difference, a better job at understanding the Israeli Palestinian conflict, a better job at learning to have listening skills. Like
We we we should be we should be doing that. And whatever that we could do to be part of that, to help that, we’d love to be part of that because that is essential. We’ve seen the challenges in America. We see similar challenges in Canada and the UK. And Mijal and I were like half joking about this beforehand, maybe it’s not so funny, but like like every country we speak to is like, No, no, our country has it really bad. No, no, our country has it really bad. No, no, our country has it really bad. I
Ironically, one of the only countries that when I visited and spoke to them they no our country has it pretty good it was us was South Africa. They’re like, No, no, they all have it bad, but like it’s our it’s our government that’s a problem. But living here it’s all good, whatever. But it like the
Jeremy Leibler
But but that’s interesting because in South Africa they they’re not experien that their government is incredibly anti-Israel. I mean, I believe it’s grounded in anti-Semitism, frankly, but they don’t have acts of anti-Semitism on the ground there in the way that we do. Yeah. so look, I I think personally I will say I susp I I I don’t know we spoke about this a little bit earlier, but I know for a fact that you know you’ve got a huge following in Australia, so you don’t you don’t need a plug, you’re already very much plugged in. and
Noam
Yeah. Yeah. That’s what they say. That’s what they say. That’s what yeah.
Noam
No, we gotta do this program though, it’s different. But yeah. No, yeah. I I just wanna just just lamb chops. That’s all it is, Jeremy.
Mijal
Noam just really wants to go back to Australia, Jeremy, and be invited to your Shabbat. You know, that’s that’s really what Noam is trying to ask for right now.
Jeremy Leibler
Well we won’t be back. The lamb chops are waiting for you.
but I do I do think that edu education clearly has come up. There is there’s a whole block on education, and there’s no question that that’s one of the only real tools at our disposal, let’s be honest. But we’re not gonna, you know, we have to target the part you know, the part of the community where anti-Semitism can flourish out of ignorance, lack of education, and and and and that has to be a huge part of it. I think that there will be certainly findings and recommendations in that area.
The way to execute on it, you know, that’s going to be a challenge because we’ve got we’ve got a we’ve got a big battle ahead of us, especially in and I suspect we’re no different to the United States. Maybe we’re a little bit a year or two behind, but that demographic of teens and 20 year olds and maybe even early 30 year olds, the TikTok generation, where they get their news from social media, you know, when it comes to understanding the complexity of the conflict.
and and and learning, even for young Jews, forget people who are not Jewish, for young Jews learning how to that their role in this story is to struggle and engage. And you do that brilliantly, absolutely brilliantly, which is why it’s so popular in the Australian school system. We need to show them how the most Jewish Zionist thing that they can do is struggle with their identity. That’s what we’re meant to do. We we’re torture Jews. We have to torture ourselves over our identity and who we are. That’s part of the journey.
Noam
Jeremy, you are an inspiration. yeah. You are such an inspiration. I’m so happy that we got to get you on the podcast. You and Alon Cassuto, who works very closely with you. you guys are doing incredible work leading the Australian Jewish community in so many ways, in ways that you d never could have anticipated. And like you said, the the one of the things that I I just I I admire about you, and I’ve heard you speak, I’ve heard you
Mijal
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Noam
You know, I I I’ve I’ve heard you speak at at the Royal Commission, I’ve heard you speak in person, but this is not your job. You have a job. And you are this is what you do on the side. This is what you do as a lay leader, as a as a volunteer. And it’s a it’s a tremendous inspiration, not just to Australian Jewry, but but to world jury and to make sure that your voice is out there across the world, across continents, is something that we wanted to make happen. So thank you so much, Jeremy.
Jeremy Leibler
Thank you and thank you both for everything that you do. We are we are great beneficiaries of it and all of your amazing work here in Australia and all of our kids are. And look, the one positive from all of this is I think we really do have this sense of connection and peoplehood. We had it before, but it’s even bigger now and and we’ve got to build on that. So I look forward to keeping in touch with you both and thank you so much for the opportunity.
Mijal
Thank you, Jeremy.
Noam
Thanks, Jeremy.