Noam
Coming up on Wondering Jews…
Mijal
I want Israel Jews to be crazy ambitious. I this is going to sound a little bit crass. Permit me for a second. I want them to go out there and make a lot of money. I want them to go out there and have big positions. I want them to go out there and amass as much influence as they can.
Noam
Welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal
Noam is going to try to convince me to read East of Eden, or at least watch the new miniseries on Netflix. Not because I’m a big Florence Pugh fan, but because Noam thinks it answers. The Book of East of Eden answers the question for today’s episode. Is ambition a virtue or a trap?
Noam
Well, let me just say my goal is to convince you to read the book before. So. So that is so. Yeah, it’s it’s good to watch the, the mini series, but definitely to definitely to read the book. And before we get started, just a huge thank you to the Bernstein Foundation for their generous support and partnership. In memory of Leo M Bernstein.
Mijal
Leo M. Bernstein was a Washington, D.C. real estate developer, investor, banker and philanthropist. A man with a deep love of America, a devotion to democracy and democratic institutions, and a lifelong pride in his Jewish identity.
Noam
We are so honored to carry his memory forward through this work, and we’re just so grateful to the Bernstein family in general for their continued partnership. And Amy Aronson, you’re just a you’re a treasure to to the world, to to all of humanity. That’s what I’ll say. Speaking of being a treasure to humanity, or maybe being someone who is the opposite of a treasure to humanity.
Noam
Enter the conversation about Kathy Ames, Kathy Ames. So, Michael, our topic is, is ambition a virtue or a trap? And I want to just before we get to Cassie Ames, who is I don’t know if you would say the female protagonist or female antagonist in the story of East of Eden. And I believe it is the most powerful story that I’ve ever read outside of the Hebrew Bible. But I want to.
Noam
Yeah. Wow. Yeah, okay. I do.
Mijal
I want to just name this powerful story outside of the Hebrew Bible.
Noam
Yes it is. It is for me. It really is the most powerful story because it gets the question. Yes.
Mijal
It probably won’t be like you’re going to disappoint so many.
Mijal
It’s like, I read it now I’m going to be like the most powerful story.
Mijal
Bible, and then it’s not going to be. And then I’m going to hate it.
Noam
Well, well, yeah, I think there are like when you when you have expectations that are too high, then it could ruin people.
Noam
But if this was but if this was but I want to be I want to be real about this. So if this was, if this was, you know, 1953 and I said that, all right, that’s a hot take. But it’s 2026 and I’m saying that and I feel pretty comfortable with that. And I’ll just tell you why very quickly.
Noam
Number one is it redirects.
Mijal
Listeners trying to get me to read this book for some time when we speak about is to fit in. Looks at me like I’m this illiterate. I don’t know what to call it like person who doesn’t know how to read. So. Okay. Go ahead. Tell us about the book and why it’s so important when I read it.
Mijal
Honestly, because there’s something contrarian inside of me. I know this sounds terrible.
Noam
All right. I have.
Mijal
An idea to read it. I’m like, I don’t want to read it. Now.
Noam
You know what? I’ve been thinking about me. Maybe I don’t think you should read East of Eden.
Mijal
Oh, okay. Great.
Noam
Okay. So so so. Oh, sorry. I thought that would work. Okay, so East of Eden, it really flips the original script about what the original sin is, is the original sin, you know, with Eve and Adam and that whole story with the with an Akash, with the snake and the original sin that really what Steinbeck talks about is brothers fighting brothers, brothers hating brothers, brothers killing brothers.
Noam
And and he does it in such a smart literary way where the protagonist names in the different generations are C and A, C and A for Cain and Abel, Cain and Abel mirroring that story. And I think about that story a lot. First of all, someone who has two brothers and one sister and you have a lot of siblings, I believe.
Mijal
I’m one of seven.
Noam
You’re one of seven. And and I think about that story of is sibling rivalry really at the core of the challenges of our identity? And my family has been the exact opposite of that, the exact opposite of that.
Mijal
But listening.
Noam
I have no idea if I listen to this, but it’s never been like that, and it’s probably because of the way my parents raised us. But it’s just not like that. Like the number one value in our family was more important than how parents got along with children, and how siblings get along with each other. Like, that’s that’s like the thing.
Noam
And so we, we, we were raised in that sort of way. But the, the, the story of East of Eden centers around that. And when I think of the story of Genesis, that’s what so much of Genesis is about. But then there’s a character named Kathy Ames in the story. And this gets to a very controversial topic, because Kathy Ames is someone who, in 1952 was described as cunning, manipulative, devious.
Noam
She, you know, led someone let her teacher to a suicide, because he wanted to do really horrible things to her. He she kills her parents. She sleeps with her with her husband’s brother. She does a lot of she then she then runs away from her two children. She shoots her husband, she runs a brothel. Like in 1952.
Noam
This is not described as a as a good character.
Mijal
But I think it’s a 1952 description.
Noam
What do you mean?
Mijal
I mean, I think in 2026 we would also say someone who does those things is not a good character.
Noam
That’s fact. But there’s a whole but there’s.
Mijal
A whole story side. Shouldn’t be killing people, like abandoning your family. Like, I don’t think we like those things today either.
Mijal
So let’s pause for a second, because we’re going to talk about the question that we had at the beginning is envision a virtue or a trap, and we’re bringing a Jewish lens to it. So I think the first thing you’re saying is that there is a character in East of Eden and tell me if I’m if I’m capturing what you’re saying, represent someone nihilistic view of the world.
Mijal
It’s a the world is a winning world. It’s like survival of the fittest. It’s a natural world. So the only thing that you can do to survive and thrive is to become agony and hard yourself. So in.
Noam
That uglier, uglier, harder. Exactly.
Mijal
So going back to your question is, is ambition a virtue or a trap? I guess Kathy’s answer would be it’s a necessity for survival. Like. But not just ambition. It’s like ruthlessness. I don’t want to I don’t know if I want to say she doesn’t sound ambitious to me. She sounds because you can be ambitious in an ethical way.
Mijal
She sounds absolutely ruthless and narcissistic, right?
Noam
Maybe she shows. Maybe she shows the negative side of ambition. So, wait, I want you to make an argument for ambition. What is the value of being ambitious?
Mijal
Aside for a second, I’m switching.
Noam
We’re going to come back to it.
Mijal
Don’t worry. So the negative or the positive? You just said no.
Noam
I want you to make an argument for ambition.
Mijal
Yeah, I’ll just say something I don’t I, I don’t usually think of ambition as something bad. Like, it’s funny for me that I’m, that you’re asking me right now to make an argument for it, because I don’t usually think I have to make an argument for it because I think of it as something good, which maybe I don’t know if you have that.
Mijal
Maybe I don’t know what your first reaction is like. Do you think of it as something bad?
Noam
Well, I think of it like this. There’s the word to be ambitious, and then there’s to be aspirational. And I think that they’re they’re similar to each other, but different. I think ambition is could drive someone. It could drive someone to succeed financially. It could drive someone to succeed. Culturally, athletically, there’s ambition to be the best. But it often what happens with ambition is it becomes less about the outcomes and what you’re trying to accomplish.
Noam
And there’s there’s an ugly side of ambition, which is that it becomes about you. And when it becomes about you, then that’s different than being aspirational. And by the way, there’s a there’s Hebrew is so helpful to understanding this in Hebrew. I don’t think there’s a clear Hebrew word for it to be ambitious outside of to be. I think the way to say is it’s probably ambitious.
Noam
I don’t know, like they probably just Hebrew size, the English word. Right. So something like that. But but I but I checked out it’s also to be deaf covered to pursue covered to pursue pursue honor. But but but aspire. Aspire is a different word to have aspiration. As far it’s different.
Mijal
Yeah. Yeah. Listen I think maybe this is where I spend I think most attributes, like I think my monitor says this, right. The most attributes have taken to an extreme right can be can be harmful. Yeah. So any attribute can be bad, right. Even as I, I could probably make the case that aspirational ism could lead into messy.
Mijal
And whatever you could, you can you can make a arguments. The most attributes take into an extreme can be bad. My monitors recommends, by the way, that most of these character traits that we we just try to have them in moderation or in together with other character traits that kind of like, you know, push against them and make them more moderated.
Mijal
But I would say for me, I, I tend to think of ambition as something, something that is, that is, that is good. The reflects this knowledge that we are created in God’s image, that we, can achieve tremendous things. And I tend to think of ambition in the context of, of, of responsibility, of like doing good in the world.
Mijal
So that’s, that’s the way that I but but I don’t deny everything that you’re saying that it can go in in bad ways. And I, I’ve had to think a lot about, how do you prevent the bad versions of ambition or somebody. You know what? I’ll just say this. I self-identify as someone ambitious, and I don’t. I’m not embarrassed about or for that.
Mijal
No, you’re also you. Know.
Noam
That’s I, I, I try to be ambitious, but I also I try to be ambitious, but I also, I also. I mean well I want to but I agree it’s not a bad thing but but like I want to go through the, the downside of.
Mijal
It before we go into the downside. You brought Genesis before. Right. So there there is this famous is it a Hasidic story? I don’t know why right now, but Thomas, this victim, it’s the that people should walk having two almost. It’s almost like if you’re wearing like a, a jacket with two packets that you have one thing in each of the packets.
Mijal
Right. And one of them and they’re both very Genesis biblical like one of them is the world was created for me. Right. And that is something that, has to do with Genesis, with being created in God’s image, with really being told to conquer the world or to work the world again. How you translate that. And then the other packet, you take out a paper and it says, and I am nothing but but that’s from the ground, which is also Genesis biblical.
Mijal
So I think Jewish tradition tells us to have to, that we must have both at the same time. Not a danger, as you’re naming it, is what happens when you only have one, what happens to someone like Kathy? But she also adds all the cruelty, right? What happens if you’re only walking around thinking the world was created? For me?
Mijal
I’m at the center of the universe, you know, narcissism, selfishness. So when it’s not motivated by the second piece of paper, I am nothing. But that’s from the ground and the humility that comes with that, the ability to see other people, to think about what’s transcendent beyond their selves, then I agree with you. That is dangerous.
Noam
So the quote that you’re talking about is.
Mijal
Right.
Noam
There was a rabbi, but. Right. But he was he was he was a rabbi who in a very cool way, didn’t dress like I said, he actually was like undercover. He was also a pharmacist, and he dressed like a regular person, but he was a Hasidic. And that story is told from the bottom of Hillary Clinton actually quoted it in one of her speeches when she was running for president, which I always thought was was pretty cool.
Noam
And your other point about the the downside of it. So the downside, I think is very seductive. The downside is what you’re alluding to is this Talmudic idea that jealousy, Tina, tava desire, gava pride, honor, these types of things are.
Noam
They? They remove people from the world, they extract people from the world. And what that means is that when we are guided by these ideas of pursuing honor, pursuing glory, pursuing desire, pursuing jealousy, it it extracts you from the world, meaning you can’t think clearly anymore if you have these qualities. These. By the way, I believe Maimonides says that like the only quality that you have to be incredibly far removed from is like, you shouldn’t be moderate about I believe he says is is is is arrogance.
Noam
We could look that up to see if that’s right or not. But I believe he says, like you can’t be in the middle on that because that what that does is and when you have anger, it removes you from thinking clearly about the world.
Mijal
Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, make it a bit more personal. Maybe it helps. I think for me, I had I don’t know if you have this when you look at when you look backwards, I tend to have like years where there’ll be like a question that occupies my mind. Do you am I, I don’t know if if.
Noam
Yeah. Give me an example. Give me an example.
Mijal
I don’t know I can, I can like trace three years of my life in which I was consumed with questions around gender and the place of women in the Jewish community. And, and, and I can trace a couple of years in which I was actually consumed with questions around. I wouldn’t call it ambition, but but but I was consumed with questions around, like, how much as somebody who wants to who chose to work in the Jewish community, how much what is the balance between doing things that are right?
Mijal
I’m not going to say this in the right way. Now you can help me. What is the balance between just pursuing things only because they are right versus pursuing like achievements and accomplishments? And, and I’m going to frame it a little bit differently. Like, I, I think at some point when I was like, you know, growing in my career, I, I came from a somewhat naive I’m going to describe it as a somewhat naive place that you should only be doing things like, teaching, hosting people like teaching Torah, doing things, and only like in a way that is that is completely, selfless.
Mijal
And that idea should even be invisible. Label. Don’t know about it, right? Like, you just do it because it’s like the right thing to do. And then I started being in, in, you know, when I started growing as, like a professional and then I started like recognizing that a lot of my field and growth had to do with titles.
Mijal
And when the people are seeing and with the invitation that you’re getting and like with like, like getting a bigger path from having more followers like I, I, I hope I am expressing myself in the right way. Now. I’m here you are.
Noam
Yeah, I.
Mijal
Got you. Okay. And I, I had a real like, crisis of question of like, where do I what’s the balance? And the reason that I was very torn by this is that I felt that I felt torn between what I’m going to call are like,
Mijal
Like doing good in a way that only has to do with, with being good and doing good in a way that accomplishes good. I’m gonna I’m gonna try to say it differently. I felt that if you wanted to make a difference in the world and reach a lot of people and try to bring more light into the world, then you don’t have a choice but to actually play in the playground of ambition, you have.
Noam
To.
Mijal
Play you, you you have to you have to achieve more accolades. You have to get those followers on social. You have to get your name out there. You have to get those prizes and awards. You you have to do all those things. And part of what I saw is I saw a lot of amazing, good people who had so much to teach and who looked at all that as something like crass or immoral or less good.
Mijal
But because of that, they, they, they did nothing of that. And then they didn’t get to teach and to shape things. And I saw a lot of people who had way less ethical qualms about it take up all the space and all the oxygen. So could you help me? Am I articulating?
Noam
I think you I think I think you laid that out perfectly. You laid out the catch 22 perfectly. And I think it’s a.
Mijal
Very the version of people who are like, there’s also a version in which all you’re thinking about is money in your bank account. I’m not even going there. I’m going right now if you want, even if even if you start from a place that you want to to do to do good, you can ask the same question with money.
Mijal
There was a question that David Brooks once dealt in a New York Times op ed. He and I’m going to paraphrase from my memory. So I hope I’m getting this right. But he had gotten a question of somebody, a young college student who said, what should I do with my life? Should I go become an investment banker, make a lot of money and donate 95% of it?
Mijal
Or should I go work? You know, in, in Africa, helping people, whatever it is. And I would probably help like 1% of what I would if I’m about to donate. I don’t know how many millions of dollars. And and he dealt with that question.
Noam
Mijal reminds me of. Have you seen this social trend right now of. And I’ll ask you the question, which would you rather $1 billion or dinner with God?
Mijal
Oh, I hate that question.
Noam
Well, because you’re Maimonadean, and there’s no such thing as standing with God.
Mijal
But when I get a dinner with God. So I want $1 billion. But you’re going to judge me for saying that because I should.
Noam
Because you’re saying. Because you’re so ambitious.
Noam
But that’s your answer. $1 billion so.
Mijal
I can have you.
Noam
But I think I just think what you said is. By the way, I love your answer. That means that you think you could get $1 billion.
Mijal
I think it’s more probable than dinner with God. That’s what I’m saying. The realm of the possible. So that’s what I’m going to choose.
Noam
It’s in the realm of the possible. By the way, this is how an ambitious person thinks about the world. This is good. This is good.
Mijal
No, no, I don’t think I will make $1 billion. But one is like magical and one can work within the laws of physics.
Noam
Why is one magical? Isn’t every every Jewish holiday you could have? You got to have dinner with God.
Mijal
Oh, that’s how you’re defining dinner with God.
Noam
Okay, that’s how I just. That’s how I just find it. I just did that’s how I went there.
Mijal
So you’re telling me Shabbat dinner versus $1 billion? I’m sorry. I’m going for $1 billion with that.
Noam
Well.
Mijal
That’s good.
Noam
I asked the questions over here.
Mijal
What would you choose? Be honest here.
Noam
Dinner with God or $1 billion, I would. I think it’s more ambitious to have dinner with God. So I go with a more ambitious thing.
Mijal
Wow. Wow.
Noam
But, But you know what? That could wait until then. I live in the here and now, and so. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so but so, so so that’s the paradox. You really, you really capture the paradox of the trap of ambition, which is that in order to succeed very often in the, let’s say, the public thought space or the intellectual leadership thought leadership space.
Mijal
Or.
Noam
Or you’re good in the world, you need to you need to you need to put yourself out there to to amass the degree, to get the to get the to get the award to, to win the competition.
Mijal
To to be seen as somebody important. Like you can do so much good when you have certain levels of influence.
Noam
Right? But to pursue that, like comes across as ugly.
Mijal
Right across as ugly is that in and of itself, it can be corrosive, right? I’m and I’m very aware of that.
Noam
And because it’s, it’s it’s corrosive because of this idea, which is you still in that at that moment that you are doing the you’re accomplishing the accomplishment in order to do something bigger, you could easily be trapped. And to think that that is the end in and of itself.
Mijal
Yeah, we are, we are, we are humans. We are so messy and flawed.
Mijal
I, I don’t, I don’t want to get into a debate that human beings bad or good. I’m just going to say we’re susceptible.
Mijal
So the second that we’re there, it’s it’s very hard to pull back and to remember, what am I doing this and it’s and it’s very hard to and I often felt this by the way I, I don’t know if, if, if I’m saying this to sharp away, but I, I think culturally some of my friends in Israel I think have more of like a mindset of like, like that means like for the sake of heaven.
Mijal
And that’s the term that I grew up with when my parents wanted to basically say, we’re doing things for the sake of heaven, not for any like earthly reward, not for any accomplishment, not nobody’s watching. We’re doing this because it is the right thing to do. And I think in a, I find that in America there is just so much more of, David causes like resume virtues.
Mijal
Right? There’s so much more of, like a pursuit for resume virtues, for the for the things that we want to put on a resume to show everybody that I find that it is that, that that it’s something we need to be aware of. Yeah.
Noam
I mean, yeah, resume virtues as opposed to what he calls eulogy virtues. So.
Mijal
Right.
Noam
Well, resume virtues, I would say, are what you accomplish in, in the world in terms of what you would put on your resume if you at the end of your professional career. You said I you know, I wrote this number of books. I went to this university, I spoke at these conferences, I earned this amount of money.
Mijal
I write, I have this kind of home.
Noam
I have this kind of home. Right? I have a I got the five bedroom home, I did it, it’s more than 4000ft². Like, oh, we did it. Versus eulogy virtues. Like, what are people going to talk about when we pass away? What is what what what what are you going to talk about when we passed away? What is the topic that people are going to like?
Noam
Is that what people are going to talk about? Look, she got the five bedroom house. She did it. No, that’s not what they’re going to talk about. They’re going to talk about. Well yeah, they’re going to tell stories about what made you such a loving person. They’re going to tell stories about what made you generous. They’re going to tell stories about, you know how when there was a friend who was going through a really difficult time that this person was there for them?
Noam
That’s not that wouldn’t show up on a resume that would show up in a eulogy and pursuing. Maybe that’s the answer, Michael pursuing eulogy virtues and to be ambitious in that regard. That’s a really healthy, beautiful thing. But to pursue resume values, I’m being careful with my words right now. It could be used positively because accomplishing is a good thing, but it can’t be the sum total of the experience.
Noam
And one more and one more thing on that. It says in Coachella, in Ecclesiastes is I want to get to this because I think there’s actually something dangerous that we haven’t gotten to yet. Coachella says, oh, have Lotus SF, that somebody who is a oh, hey, somebody who loves as a lover of money will never be satisfied with it.
Noam
And in other words, what Ecclesiastes is saying is exactly what you said. Ecclesiastes is saying that it becomes addictive, like it’s it’s a it’s a never ending hamster wheel. If you are a lover of money. And I wonder whether or not there are elements in our Jewish communities that have become too ambitious with regard to monetary acquisition and material consumption, that there’s so much material out there that it becomes this hedonistic adaptation, that we become so used to the thing that we had yesterday that it’s not enough and we want more of it, not just internally, but then we also look externally.
Noam
Like I just went to this, the, the what’s it called? The the American Dream Hall in new Jersey. It was it was insane Michael. It is.
Mijal
Many times and I just I’m like.
Noam
It is in. Well yeah. And you’ll only be more tired after that. It is whatever you want is there. You want to go skiing. It’s there. You want to go to a theater, it’s there. You want to go to the museum park? It’s there. Well, how about a water park? Yeah. Nickelodeon. It’s there. You want? If you’re Jewish, you want kosher food.
Noam
You got Cinnabon, you got Smashburger, you got Bravo pizza, you got fish grill. You got, by the way, like, this is the stuff that I. That I love. Good food is, you know, but yeah, yeah, I do, but but I can imagine you go there and you see that your friends are doing there, but they got to go to the water park and they got to the water park and the amusement park.
Noam
They got to go water park, music park and skiing. And now what you have to do is I just got exhausted saying all that. There’s this trap of ambition that you have to be able to afford all of that because it’s now accessible to your neighbor. Maybe to you.
Mijal
I don’t know if it would use ambition for that. No I’m not. Say more than maybe I’m wrong, but.
Mijal
I don’t know if it’s ambition, but I think it’s like getting caught in the trap of constantly wanting more and and being in communities where that’s the message that you get. I’ll give you a different example. So the holiday of which, you know, besides for being a day now that’s interwoven with October 7th is also a holiday when we celebrate the Torah.
Mijal
And in in one of the communities I belong to, it’s a holiday when, it’s become the norm to give treats to kids. But it’s. But this year I was I was like, actually arguing with my husband about this because I was so annoyed. They, my husband went like shul hopping with, with the kids. And each shul was like out, what do you call it?
Mijal
Like out? Like out.
Noam
Out, out doing the other.
Mijal
The other. So like, my kids came home with like six where a lot of people are like in retail and wholesale, like they came home with like six, like beautiful backpacks, the kind of like you buy it filled with candy, filled with snacks. One show was giving away skateboards and like, basketball hooks and like they have like and and I was and I was like going I was like, okay.
Mijal
And my kids are coming home. And for them, which is about dancing with the Torah, it’s like, well, what? Like I asked my son how was. And his answer was, well, the Gushers, the Snapple snacks, the backpack. And I was like, oh my gosh, that is that is not my vision for what this is. But okay, I’m gonna I’m gonna if I start venting in this name, it’s not it’s not going to end.
Mijal
So I need to stop me. But.
Noam
I I’m, I’m I’m not the right person to stop you for this crazy.
Mijal
I was like, I.
Noam
But but it’s true at the adult level. One second. But at the adult level, it’s true with scotch and tequila. And you might not partake in any of these drinks, I would imagine, but, but but this they have this level of Scotch. They have that level of tequila. And you’re like, wait, what’s going on over here? What just happened?
Mijal
Let’s give the generous case for.
Noam
You, okay? Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Because, by the way, one second before you give the generous case. I enjoy all of it. I do.
Mijal
I. Do maybe maybe I do all of this because I don’t enjoy any of you.
Noam
But I like Gushers, and I like. And I like a good tequila, I like gusher, I love Gushers.
Mijal
You know? I know maybe I wouldn’t be complaining if they gave us things I like, you know?
Noam
What do you like? What are the things that you like? Yeah, it’s a great bit.
Mijal
It would be like really high quality, like a great books, but.
Noam
Oh my God, stop it.
Mijal
I’m actually.
Noam
Using books.
Mijal
Okay. No, you know what? I like what I was.
Noam
Like, that’s your vice is books.
Mijal
No. One second. There’s no vice here. Okay?
Noam
I said gushers and tequila. And you’re saying books?
Mijal
It has to be high quality, high quality coffee.
Noam
Toblerone?
Mijal
No. Okay, okay. Whatever. Okay. Now you’re putting in the spot here, you know, you know, paper source, that store. Yeah. Affiliate with Barnes and Noble, like all this stuff. They’re like, I love that kind of stuff. It’s like, whatever this is not about. But maybe if they were giving out those things, maybe I will be celebrating them instead of just, like, complaining.
Noam
No, I don’t think you would. But you were going to give the but you were going to have a generous take on it. What’s your generous take?
Mijal
Well, I want to bring you back to the conversation around his ambition. A virtue or a trap, because I think we we can take this conversation in so many directions, like the cost of living in the Jewish community, religious community, blah, blah, blah, but but just going back to this, right? Especially in my work with, with my shul, which is, you know, made up mostly of a young Jewish professionals.
Mijal
One question that often comes up is, what do you do in an environment where a lot of spaces, basically to attract young Jews to come and do Jewish and to come to school? I just like throwing money like crazy in terms of kiddush, in the food they put out and the drinks they put out. And I would say, and I usually like I love about so much, but I will say how bad I think has contributed to the change of culture around this, because most especially in, high density urban settings for young people, they they throw a lot of parties and they change the expectations.
Mijal
So, so people then when they go to, to, to, to and they’re just seeing like food and drinks and it’s all like a big party and this and that. Then they begin to generate an expectation. This is what show looks like. So the general case for it before I go into the non general case, the general case is that in this materialistic consumerist world, if we want to attract people to Judaism and to spirituality, we might have to do it using.
Mijal
This means it goes back a little bit to what I said before about how you have to use, you know, resume virtues to achieve good in the world. Right? So that’s that’s like the, the generous version of this. If they don’t come to show, they probably won’t come to show at all. So we’re putting this out here to attract them, the non generous, view of this is that it basically downgrades what we’re offering.
Mijal
It downgrades Jewish community. It waters it down and it becomes more exclusive. It’s more materialistic. And it also makes it harder for people who are not trying to, to use materialism in such a strong way to, to be able to attract people. The second that you’ve created this expectations. So there’s this trap constantly and I and I feel like as a man and I feel it acutely as a community leader, because the question and internally as a person like, you know, I, I was honest that I struggled with this a lot.
Mijal
Like when I have I struggle with this a lot, like, you know, in terms of like doing things that are going to, quote unquote, build up my prestige, which helped me do good versus doing things with no calculations around prestige and achievement. So it’s it’s really tricky.
Noam
I will say that the Judaism has a technology to help us deal with this, which is like, I feel like I feel like I am Shabbat CMO in this conversation, but like, I think that Shabbat is an example of something that at the very least helps us reduce this nonstop production wheel of police where we are wondering, Jews.
Mijal
Why don’t you finish your sentence?
Noam
No, no, I’d rather you disagree mid-sentence. Go for it. Go ahead. No, no, no, I want to hear what?
Mijal
Technology.
Noam
It’s a it’s a technology. If I didn’t have Shabbat, I wouldn’t stop, I wouldn’t stop, I wouldn’t stop to just enjoy. That’s it. Period. Like, I’m just. I’m not. I’m not producing anything right now. I’m not I there’s nothing new that is being brought into the world. I am pausing, I’m having to use an Israeli term and I’m having a pause.
Mijal
Right now. I don’t actually I don’t disagree with that. What I do this I don’t know if I disagree with, but I’m going to be a pessimist for a second, is that I’m just being too dark here into synagogue.
Noam
No. It’s good. What is it.
Mijal
In in our community, sometimes Shabbat is like when you’re just like, no, I’m being too dark. I’m being too dark.
Noam
Come on. Everyone wants to know what you have to say.
Mijal
No, it’s it’s like the competition for, like, was like the the the like Shabbat, Shabbat.
Noam
So there’s.
Mijal
Like, being in the clothing, showing off the this showing of Shabbat itself.
Noam
Right. That’s that’s true. Yeah. That’s fair, that’s true. That’s true for any that’s true for any culture where you’re out in the public and that’s and and some people listen and be like, well, that’s that kind of synagogue that’s kind of show. That’s that. It’s not this, that’s not, that’s fine. But I, I want to get to two more things that have been on my mind a lot in this conversation about ambition.
Mijal
Say one thing before you get to those, I just want to name this. There’s people I. But I’m also critical of people who don’t play the game because.
Noam
You you mentioned that.
Mijal
I am critical because there are certain rabbis or teachers or politicians or whatever, like the world is so dark and needs so much. And when they, like, refuse to play the game or don’t try to learn to play the game, they are sitting the ground to worse.
Noam
Actors I have, I have, I have, I have a story. I have a story that’s overly personal in this. But I’m going to say it, yeah, it’s a little TMI. So it’s a little tip. You ready for it? It’s not about me. It’s not about me. It’s not about me. I’ll give it. Well, here, I’ll tell you the story.
Noam
And then because it just happened. Well, I want to share because it highlights your point. I have a I have a teacher. His name is, well, Silber. He’s a rabbi. He’s a teacher. He’s an amazing teacher. And he loves teaching about self-actualization. He loves it. He’s always teaching about self-actualization. And it’s. And it’s so powerful, so special. He’s been.
Noam
And he was at a synagogue in Baltimore where I went to for 24 years, and he was a head rabbi there for. And he’s amazing. He now just became the head of the Orthodox Union, together with another, a friend of mine named Josh Joseph. And there were people out there who were saying to him, hey, listen, don’t do it like you were just you were just like, you’re the head rabbi of the synagogue.
Noam
Don’t don’t become the head of the Orthodox Union, which is a major national organization, like do what you’re doing and for lots of good reasons and this and that. But I think a part of it was, I think a part of it is this kind of allergy to seeing religious leaders be ambitious. And if if this Rabbi Shmuel Silber can be the head of the you and have this massive impact, then I understand why people want him to stay local.
Noam
But the other side of it is like, no, be ambitious, go for it. Be the national leader that you can be. And there’s that. There’s that tension between being where you are and constantly giving speeches and guiding people to be into self-actualization, and then to say to yourself, well, now I have the opportunity to be the head of the Orthodox Union.
Noam
Let me go for it. That’s not a bad thing. It’s not being guided by a bad principle. It’s being guided by ambition in terms of leadership. Ambition. Yeah. What do you think? What do you do? Is that. Is that was that too much sharing that.
Mijal
Something weird, vulnerable, personal right. That I would have to pretend to like, you know.
Noam
Be okay with. Yeah.
Mijal
I know I’m going to keep talking, you know.
Noam
Like, but maybe people listening are. No. Okay.
Mijal
No, no.
Noam
Maybe. No. But.
Mijal
Okay. Don’t listen to him here.
Noam
Okay? Michael. Michael.
Mijal
No, but I was going to say something, especially. Let me let me bring it to, like, post-doctoral world. Okay? I actually want I want Israel Jews to be crazy rrr ttttambitious. I this is going to sound a little bit crass. Permit me for a second. I want them to go out there and make a lot of money. I want them to go out there and have big positions.
Mijal
I want them to go out there and amass as much influence as they can. I, I want them to to dream big or go like I really like. I want us to learn from Herzl, who was a little bit of an egomaniac and who basically thought that he could negotiate with like heads of met with.
Noam
Like with the Kaiser.
Mijal
The Kaiser he met with, like the Pope.
Mijal
And he pretended, he bluffed he like, pretended to and and he was so full of his own self-importance. But he took it to help the Jewish people. I’m like, I, I so so it cannot be. It cannot be success without significance. But but but I actually think in this precarious time we need to we need to be ambitious combined with a deep sense of purpose and service.
Mijal
Yeah, that’s that’s what I want to push for.
Noam
Yeah. Okay. So this is what I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you, as I know we both got to go, but here’s here’s a question I have for you. When you think of an ambitious person, what’s it like? What’s a name that comes to you right away? I say a person. What’s your answer?
Noam
Ambitious person. How is he?
Mijal
Ambitious.
Noam
How is he ambitious?
Mijal
He wanted to change America and American Jews. And he did. And he kept building and he kept doing. And he had visions and big dreams.
Noam
Yeah.
Noam
Great. Any changes in the world changed the world.
Mijal
Yeah, I know I criticized a little bit like, you know, the.
Noam
That’s okay. I mean, if there’s, there’s no movement or party or anything that has perfection.
Mijal
Yeah. He changed I and I. Is it the most influential Jew of the last 100 years after Ben-Gurion? I don’t know, it was like, oh.
Noam
You just insulted again.
Mijal
Why after Ben-Gurion? Because. Because you are. Because.
Noam
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Mijal
Created the state of Israel.
Noam
Yeah.
Mijal
That’s not.
Noam
A big deal. No, it’s a big deal. It’s a big deal to create the state of Israel. Yeah, I think I think so. I think it’s definitely up there. I would I if you said that about me, I, I take that pretty nicely. Be like, whoa, that’s something else. Michael Jordan just comes to my head right away. That’s it.
Noam
Michael Jordan I’m like, this is a this is someone who wants to win. This is someone who will not take losing for an answer. It’s just not an acceptable response. And and we’ll make sure that every single person lives up to the expectations that he sets out, not just for them, but for himself. The greatest thing about MJ was that he never asked anyone to do something that he himself wouldn’t do.
Noam
He he wouldn’t say put in the extra hours, but I won’t put in the extra hours. He always put in the extra hours. So Michael Jordan and Alibaba are like two really ambitious people.
Mijal
That’s something. There was an article, in the last issue of which we can put in the show notes by, by Hersh’s, dad John Paul, in which he wrote about reluctant leadership. Yeah, I just want to name it here because we’re talking about ambition and leadership. And is it good? Is it bad? I love the model. I think we should put on the table this this very Jewish idea of like, reluctant leaders, which is which is what happens when you become a vicious and pursue things, but almost reluctantly, it’s because for the greater good.
Noam
Because you have to. Because it’s needed.
Mijal
Because it’s needed, because you’re in the right place at the right time. Because the world. Right?
Noam
I mean, he talks about he talks about Moses in that piece, right? Talks about Jeremiah, I think in the piece. Is that right or did I make that up? I don’t know, but yeah, but it was a it was a really a really powerful piece.
Mijal
And I think John and Rachel themselves, I think, and so many Jews after October 7th are like reluctant leaders in sense that they never thought this path. But the world came to them and they stood up. Okay, now let’s let’s bring it back to East of Eden. So Kathy sounds like a little monster. I’m sorry. I’m like, I don’t like that.
Mijal
She’s your.
Noam
You’re like. You’re like, I don’t care about this new feminist reading of Kathy Ames. Like, like. And no, you’re not. You’re not buying it.
Mijal
But I feel very good judging all of this without having read the book. So that’s that’s law that I have.
Noam
Right. Well.
Mijal
You know, lately, like, I just don’t like reading such dark things.
Noam
I didn’t like. Maybe there’s something wrong with me that I didn’t find it overly dark, even though I just went through incredibly dark parts of the story. But I.
Mijal
Know what I want to do. Out of friendship. What? I’m going to buy the book. I’m going to buy it, okay, I will, I will have it in my bookshelf. Yeah. And randomly on Shabbat, I pick up whatever books I have around and see what am I going to read this time? And I’ll try it. I’m not going to promise that I can read the whole thing if I don’t get into it, but I will try.
Mijal
How’s that?
Noam
I’m paralyzed in response because I did not think you would say that, so I. I am so satisfied. I’m humble. I don’t even know what to say. I’m just going to be quiet because I don’t want to leave one way or the other. So I’m just being quiet. And if you do that, great. If you don’t do that, great to okay.
Mijal
So okay. With that aside, while I’m like on this side, just going on Amazon like East of Eden, let me buy this now. Literally. But you want to bring it back to East of Eden. Like how how does this is there anything redemptive about ambition or not? Ambition.
Noam
Yeah, I think I think we laid into it. There’s there’s ambition that’s valuable in terms of self-actualization. I think ambition religiously to accomplish a lot religiously in East of Eden specifically. Well, I think I think I think I’m going to I’m going to contrast Kathy with Adam Trask and I’ll you have no idea what I’m talking about right now.
Noam
So we know it’s her husband who she, she, she wants, she shoots and he’s like this like a simple, idealistic, overly idealistic way of thinking about the world. And she’s like, what are you not seeing? Whoa. Who are you not listening to? What is wrong with you? She shakes him, and there’s the again, just in terms of all of us, there’s this toggling.
Noam
There’s a toggling between this ambition, seeing the dark side of things, understanding that like the world is, is a, you know, dog eat dog world, dog eat dog world, but it’s also a world that has positivity and idealism and seeing the good in it. And it’s the it’s the toggling between the two. And I think, again, that is one of the many reasons that I love East of Eden.
Noam
It makes me constantly think about all these internal struggles that I have of the different sides of this debate.
Mijal
So how is this show compared to the book?
Noam
Rotten tomatoes gives it 86%, which is very high.
Mijal
Tomatoes.
Noam
Well, they are scenes in it that are inappropriate. So I cover my eyes. That’s not.
Mijal
The question. No. Is it a good show?
Noam
Like a lot. Yeah, like a lot.
Noam
Okay, that’s all I’m asking. This is not like.
Mijal
A test of your.
Noam
Okay, I like it’s a great show. It’s a great show.
Mijal
Show in tomatoes.
Noam
And me. And here’s my here’s the thing I will say I watch my TV.
Mijal
I want to read.
Noam
My my TV time is at 10 p.m. and I will. Meaning that’s when I’m watching a show with my wife.
Mijal
So you watch TV every night at.
Noam
Like right around then that’s when I turn it on.
Mijal
Interesting. Wow.
Noam
And then and here’s my here’s my here’s my test. Here’s my test. My test is am I falling asleep or not? And and I and I as opposed to do I go to sleep? If I go to sleep, then that means a show is really good to me. If I fall asleep, if I pass out while watching it, then it means it doesn’t capture my attention.
Noam
So I, while watching this mini series, have been choosing to go to sleep and not just falling asleep.
Mijal
Okay, that is.
Noam
That’s how my body knows. If I like something.
Mijal
That’s that’s. That’s wonderful.
Noam
Well, Michael, awesome hanging out and hey, stay ambitious.
Mijal
And I’m buying the book.
Noam
Okay?
Mijal
Deal.
Mijal
Okay. All right. Bye Noam.
Noam
See you soon.