Noam
Coming up on Wondering Jews…
Mijal
And that is very scary to say “I was wrong.” But if you can say, you know what, 5%, 5% I was wrong. It makes you feel like your world is not falling apart, your identity is not falling apart.
Noam
Welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal
It’s really great to be here now. I feel like we haven’t done this in person. Like in a while.
Noam
I’m pumped to be here in conversation with you.
Mijal
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming to New York. I have to one day make it to Florida.
Noam
I would love that.
Mijal
I want to think about it. Yeah.
Noam
You’re not going to think about it. You’re not going to end up. You know what? I always say this. There’s no reason that between the months of November and May. Well, not May, November and April. You should. You should come down.
Mijal
Okay. So you’ll bring me the family? Everybody down. Florida.
Noam
I’m not sure about that.
Mijal
We’ll see. We’ll figure it out. Figure it out. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. And today we’re going to be talking about something that is really topical for this time of year where like at the time of like the High Holidays, you know, the New year, Yom Kippur, and this is a topic that is not an easy one.
Mijal
I’m actually like struggling with it a little bit. So I’m excited to try to figure it out together, which is why is it so hard to admit when, like when you mess up when you’re wrong? And what can you do to get better at it?
Noam
Well, it’s very easy for people to admit when you mess up.
Noam
It’s very hard for people to admit when. When I mess up. When we mess up. Right.
Mijal
Right? Yeah. What? Do you have any examples that you want to share when it’s really hard? Yes, yes.
Noam
First of all, let’s just name this. It is incredibly challenging to admit when we make mistakes as human beings. I think it’s something that is part of our makeup that’s incredibly challenging to do. And I think it’s also true nationally to do. It’s very hard to do. We we think of the concept of repentance as of tissue as something that is like it’s like, what’s the big deal about?
Noam
It was a guy years ago, a great, great, great when the greatest.
Mijal
Philosopher, a guy.
Noam
A guy.
Mijal
A guy.
Noam
A guy from Amsterdam who was one of the greatest philosophers of all time. What do you mean, a guy? Not really.
Mijal
Spinoza.
Noam
The greatest Spinoza. Benedict. Spinoza. And he spoke about that. This concept of tissue. He says it’s so silly. It’s so wretched. He has a great.
Mijal
I didn’t know this. Wait. Tell me more.
Noam
Well, he thinks it’s. He said that the concept of teshuvah. He has a great line about it. And maybe one of our producers could find out. Find the line. But he has a great line about Toshiba being something that is almost he calls it like he calls it a double sin, because not only is it ineffective, but it’s dumb, that kind of thing.
Noam
Like there’s like what you did already happened. So why would you go backwards in time to try to erase something that took place when time is linear, he argues, and if time is linear, then going backwards to change something is inane.
Mijal
Okay, so Spinoza is saying that you can’t change the past. So any attempt to to feel bad about it and to repair is not just futile, but it also just makes it worse.
Noam
It makes it. It’s a double sin because you’re doing something that a can’t be done. And number two is you think that you could do something about it.
Mijal
Interesting. And what does he think people should do when they do something wrong?
Noam
No, I don’t know what his next.
Mijal
What what’s the alternative?
Noam
To go on, to move on. That’s what I think would say to to move on. But the reason. So I was. Like.
Mijal
But you know, there is something real in what he’s saying.
Noam
Yeah, right.
Mijal
No, because I’ve often thought about it. We’re talking about tissue right now, which is often translated as repentance, but it’s like a weird word. It’s return repair. Yeah, but I’ve often thought about the fact that this idea in Jewish tradition is almost illogical. Illogical, right? No, no, I’m agreeing with I’m agreeing with him, actually. Which to me doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.
Mijal
But I’ve. If you. He was really into nature. Right. And to understanding the world through through nature. If you think about it like once, once a tree falls down, right. You can bring it back up. It fell right. You can’t really fix it in that way. So he’s saying something that I think maybe even goes to the root of our question, like, why is it so hard to admit that we are wrong?
Mijal
Well, for some of us, it’s because maybe we don’t really believe that it does anything or that it can do anything right.
Noam
Oh, that’s a good that’s a good insight. So maybe. So issue number one of why we don’t want to write the wrong is it doesn’t actually do anything productively.
Mijal
Oh we don’t believe. We don’t believe. We don’t. It’s either that we don’t believe reality can change or. And to me, this is the one that feels very real. We don’t believe we can change.
Mijal
And I think, by the way, numb. I think there’s a lot of people I think a lot of people in the last year or two have been changing the way they think about the world and about themselves. Visibility, different big political questions, partially because of new circumstances. And it’s something very there’s something very destabilizing there. Like if you’re a lifelong, let’s say, Democrat or progressive, and then you’re like, you know what?
Mijal
I’m not in this place anymore. And I’m going to like, actually own that. And that’s that’s really hard.
Noam
That’s your it becomes an identity of yours.
Mijal
Yeah.
Noam
And it’s when your opinions become your identity that it becomes very hard to change your mind.
Mijal
Especially when you live in a society where that is viewed as weakness as opposed. Yeah. As opposed to maturity or growth. Right. When you’re kind of like accused or viewed as like just changing your mind for no reason as opposed to like, you know, what part of what it means to be a human is to learn new things and to change your mind.
Mijal
I find for me, I mean, I’ve definitely experienced that, and I’ve had a lot of like, there’s a lot of issues that I have changed my mind on all the way from, like, you know, Israel to race in America to like a ton of issues that I can probably that I’ve experienced, things like that. I also find it really hard, like in a whole other sphere, but like in terms of like interpersonal relationships, right?
Mijal
When you are able to I think for me, the hardest thing is to be able to notice the way that we contribute to bad or toxic dynamics and to take responsibility for the things that that we do.
Noam
You know, we’re gonna ask you, for example.
Mijal
I know and I and and it’s really hard because like.
Mijal
It’s it’s hard also. Like, I don’t know who’s listening to the podcast and the people that I have.
Noam
Yeah.
Mijal
My husband, my mom, my sister, my, you know what I mean. Friends and…
Noam
No, but.
Mijal
You know what I’ll say like this. I’ll say that. I’ve as someone who’s like, been to therapy and I’m not embarrassed about it. And I think it’s important in different ways. I think to me, what I, the moments that have been the most fruitful are when you’re able to be in a space and like, you have this sort of realization, like you thought somebody else was the problem, right? Let’s say, like, you know, a close friend that you have and you think like it’s all their fault, the way that we are fighting this and that.
Mijal
And when you’re able to actually take a step back and say, actually, this is a dynamic and I am contributing in the following way. And I don’t know if that means to say like I’m wrong, but it’s at list to say, like, I’m responsible.
Mijal
For this thing that I’m not happy with because with interpersonal relationships, like wrong, it’s a hard work to always use because it assumes there’s like an objective right and wrong. Right? Like a binary. But when you think about human relationships, whether it’s like a romantic relationship or with our children or our parents or our friends, it’s not always like. You know, who’s.
Mijal
Empirically right and who’s empirically wrong.
Noam
That’s kind of irrelevant. Often.
Mijal
I think it’s even harmful when it’s like when you become like a judge, like you know who’s right. And it’s much more like, are we invested in this? We in this ass that we have, and what are we doing? You know, for it to not be as great as it could be.
Noam
So we hold on to we hold on to this. We hold on to this feeling of whatever it is. I just identity, this opinion. And then that becomes that becomes part of us.
Mijal
Yeah. And I want to say something. It’s not even that it becomes part of it. I think we’re trying to bring up. Why is it hard to say we’re wrong? Right. So one of the reasons we said it’s like it’s an identity. It’s very destabilizing. It can be embarrassing. People can judge us. And I think when I even go back to what you said about Spinoza, I think when it comes to interpersonal relationships and when it comes to not just opinions, but like attributes, to me the hardest thing is that, like, I’m afraid I can’t change, right?
Mijal
So let’s say that if I I’ll bring.
Noam
Is it is it that you feel insincere? Is that is that maybe that’s a third reason.
Mijal
No. It’s more like, let’s say like, you know, I.
Mijal
Realized that I have a bad habit. Okay? But, like, I get anxious easily and, like, I’ll overanalyze and like, I’ll bring it to a relationship and, like, that’s going to harm the relationship, right? And so to admit that I am in the wrong or to admit that I’m, that I’m responsible for something, that that is not good, and then what do I do with this?
Mijal
It is so hard to change as human beings. Like it is not for any of us who’ve tried to improve. In some ways it is so, so difficult to look at attributes that we have and to say like, I want to grow, I want to change. Like it’s not, it’s not easy to do. And that’s always been really hard for me when it comes to Yom Kippur, like that, kind of like self-reflection.
Mijal
To me, what’s been really hard is the the fear of what it means to be radically honest with myself about my flaws, while not knowing if and how I can change them.
Noam
Right? Certainly, the more we become entrenched in our behaviors and our disciplines, then that makes it even harder and harder to potentially change them.
Mijal
Yeah, become entrenched. Or the other thing, by the way, we didn’t even bring up so much. But, you know, there’s this medieval philosopher of Joseph Elbow, which you can tell us exactly what he he was born. That’s one of your things.
Noam
1380 to 1444.
Mijal
There we go. Okay. Thank you.
Mijal
And he’s well known as like a philosopher. He’s somebody who gave, for example, three principles of faith, things like that. And he has a really powerful discussion. He tries to say what ends up preventing people from doing tissue. I’m going to bring it to our discussion. What ends up preventing people from saying that they are wrong? Right. So one of the reasons that it brings is that it’s simple.
Mijal
He talks about like greed. I’m going to use it in my own words. One is that they don’t mind that what they’re doing is bad. Right? So it’s like if you let’s bring bad, bad examples. I mean, not things that are easily identifiable in us. Okay. But let’s say that like you’re stealing. Okay. But like, you don’t mind that because you think that the pursuit of money is like the most important thing.
Mijal
So because you actually because you actually want that thing that is bad or wrong, you’re never going to be able to to think that you’re wrong. Right? A different reason that it gives though is rationalization. So whatever you do, you end up rationalizing and saying, well, there are good reasons for this. One of the things that I was wondering if it relates to this name is that I think there’s a powerful cultural current, which is that we blame a lot of our bad actions on, like, our parents and our upbringing.
Noam
Right. You’re seeing that a lot. You’re saying.
Mijal
I mean, we’ve seen it for a while, but it’s like it’s not new in the last year or two, but it’s like, you know, it’s the whole cultural trend of sitting in your therapist couch and blaming everything on your parents and also saying, I am this way because of how I was shaped.
Noam
Right? It’s the opposite of radical accountability, is what you’re saying.
Mijal
I think. So what do you think?
Noam
Well, I want to say, you know, stick that line about rationalizing “I.”
Mijal
Which one?
Noam
That the word rationalize. It’s a rational lie.
Mijal
Okay, okay.
Noam
That’s what you do. You convince yourself of something, right? In a very rational way that, you know, I’m such a thoughtful person that this is it’s a lie. But you rationalize, you make it rational. And that’s what we do for anything that we want to protect. Right?
Noam
So those are the two things so far, though, of the safety of Rabbi Yosef.
Mijal
I don’t know if it’s I should look it up. I just know that he wrote this.
Noam
I think it is.
Mijal
Great. Then it is, then it is.
Noam
I think it is.
Mijal
And if we’re wrong.
Noam
We’ll own it.
Noam
Okay. And we apologize.
Mijal
Yes, yes.
Noam
No. But. So, number one. What what holds us back? I just want to go back to this. So one. Is so.
Mijal
So I’m trying to find the right language.
Mijal
It’s that we actually want that thing that. Is bad.
Mijal
You don’t mind hurting people.
Noam
It’s all good. Okay. Number two is.
Mijal
That we rationalize it.
Noam
Rationalize. And what’s number three?
Mijal
Number three is that we don’t even. And number 3rd may be similar to whatever. They’re all similar. Number three is that it’s even hidden from us, that it’s a bad thing. Like it’s we become so numb and society has become so filled of certain things that we don’t even realize that we’re doing something that is wrong.
Noam
Try to think of an example of that.
Noam
Greed.
Mijal
Well, but that’s the first one, right? Right? Right, right. Well, no, but it could be something like the first one is like I’m stealing and everyone thinks it’s wrong, but the last one could be like, I.
Noam
Just could be.
Mijal
Yeah, I’m just pursuing this things, and everyone does it, and I don’t even.
Noam
I make some people angry right now.
Mijal
No, no. Go for it Noam.
Noam
Okay, fine. Okay.
Noam
I have a lot to know. I’ll give you an example of this. This is not. I’m not saying.
Mijal
Who are you going to make angry?
Noam
I think it depends. I think there’s a lot of people.
Noam
So my. I have a son and three daughters. Okay? And my daughters love wearing clothing that we have been purchased for them yet. Aviator nation. Have you seen aviator?
Mijal
I don’t know what this is.
Noam
You don’t know what this is?
Mijal
Why my daughter is six. So maybe.
Mijal
Maybe.
Noam
That’s. Why Leora knows. What? Leora, my friend over here
Mijal
Knows what?
Noam
Aviator nation.
Mijal
Okay, what’s.
Noam
So aviator nation is like is a clothing brand that all, all many young people are wearing these days. And it.
Mijal
Is young.
Noam
Woman I think. Young women.
Mijal
Yeah. Okay. Does it? Yeah.
Noam
Or don’t be young. It could be older. Okay. I’m not like it’s women, but Aviator Nation is a brand. It’s incredibly expensive to me. It’s incredibly expensive, I should say. And a sweatshirt costs like 140 bucks or something like that. And that’s a lot of money to me. But my daughters are in a culture in which almost everyone is wearing these Aviator Nation sweatshirts.
Noam
So my wife and I are like deciding, do we do? How do we what? How do we navigate this?
Mijal
Do we buy the sweatshirts?
Noam
Sweatshirts?
Mijal
Okay.
Noam
Now again, I’m not saying it’s a sin to to wear Aviator Nation in an insane comment. What I’m saying that we become inured to is that the word I don’t know, like like we become like num num, we become numb to is this pursuit of materialism, this pursuit of something that is because everyone has it. We don’t even realize the consumerism that we’re living in at all times.
Noam
And it’s it’s scary to me. And again, that’s not a good example of a sin. I’m not saying it’s an obvious sin, but but there is something unhealthy about this nonstop pursuit of consumers, right?
Mijal
And because everyone’s in it, like, you don’t even stop.
Noam
That my daughters have. No, they’re just enjoying it and they’re not sitting. But like, it’s just it’s this, this, this water that you’re swimming in that you don’t realize that you’re swimming. Right? I realize it because I didn’t grow up like that at all. And, you know, we were wearing Bugle Boy.
Noam
We went with bugle.
Mijal
Okay.
Noam
I’m like my like, ABC is of, like, sweatshirts and thing. Okay, great. Great.
Noam
That’s the you know, but so I don’t know that’s that’s something on my mind to not. And everyone is within their own socioeconomic.
Mijal
By the way a similar example which is not aviator nation. But I would say like there’s like just like a random example, but like you could, you could buy things that were manufactured using an ethical practices, right? Slave labor, whatever.
Mijal
And that’s the kind of thing that you can’t even repent from. You can’t even, like, say, I was wrong because you don’t even realize it. Exactly right. So I think there’s like rationalization, there’s greed, there’s an ad, the Spinoza thing. There’s the fear that that it’s much worse when you when you don’t know if you can change. Right.
Mijal
It’s much worse. This is this is my my spin on Spinoza. Right? That it’s much worse to. Admit Spinoza, that it’s much worse to admit you are wrong when you don’t know if you can change.
Noam
Right
Mijal
Yeah, okay. But there is one.
Noam
Yeah.
Mijal
No, there’s one big idea, though. Like, I want to just not talk about, you know, how why it’s hard, but but what we can do to actually get better at it.
Noam
But we have to get there. But there’s there’s more, there’s more, there’s more. There’s what I was saying about, like, why I lied so unbelievably hard to change your mind on something to say I was wrong about. There’s another. There’s another idea which is our kids didn’t die in vain syndrome. Have you heard of that?
Mijal
I mean, I think I know what you mean, but go for it.
Noam
So our kids.
Mijal
It’s like a very intense way of.
Noam
Saying yes, it’s.
Mijal
You can call it also like.
Noam
A.
Mijal
The gamble.
Noam
Yeah.
Mijal
Yes. Sunk cost fallacy.
Noam
Sunk cost fallacy. Exactly where this first came up in, I think World War one where parents were sent were after the war started and specifically in Italy, and so many people were dying. And what they said was what parents said was our kids didn’t die in vain. And so therefore we have to continue fighting and we have to continue fighting and continue fighting.
Noam
So another 30,000 died, another 20,000 died. And it’s ironic in many ways, because the people who are most severe and committed to this idea of continuing the war, whatever it is, are the parents of children who died and were killed. Why? Because they’re saying to themselves, our kids didn’t die in vain. And the only way to ensure that what happened in the past has value, or is somehow blessed in some sort of way is if you continue to invest to ensure that the war that you believe, whatever the war is, that was the right thing to do.
Noam
Now, they did not die in vain. And so you commit yourself to an ideology that could continue to hurt yourself. I think about this personally. So yes, in terms of in terms of economics, it’s called the son cost fallacy that oh, because I already spent money on this thing. I’ll just continue to spend money on that thing to somehow make it all okay.
Noam
We do this with ourselves.
Mijal
Yeah, well, let’s make it. Let’s make it like, let’s bring some examples. I don’t know about war, for example. So let’s say that you invest a lot on a career that is eating at your soul, and then you find yourself like in your, you know, 20 or 30 or 40s with this real sense of like, maybe this wasn’t the right thing for me, but it’s like, I what then?
Mijal
Was that a waste?
Noam
Did I just waste the last 20 years?
Mijal
And then you don’t change.
Noam
You don’t change, right?
Noam
That’s our sunk cost fallacy. It happens all the time. I’m in my mid 30s right now and in my my late 20s right now. And I went. To.
Mijal
I was like. You’re not
Noam
Relax. I know I’m a couple years older. Than you.
Mijal
I know, I know.
Noam
I know 40 everyone
Mijal
Go ahead. No, keep going, keep going.
Noam
Anyway, so it could be in your late 20s. You could say, I went to law school. I spent three years. So I’ll give you a good example of a friend of mine who didn’t do this, though. So a friend of mine, one of my best friends, he went to med school and decided that he worked really hard on his MCAT.
Noam
He got into medical, got into med school he wanted to go to. And it’s actually a funnier story that I’m not going to get into because I can get in trouble for this one. But at the end of the medical school, he decided he wanted to go into consulting, and now he is a major consultant for one of like, like BCG, McKinsey, that kind of thing.
Noam
But he could have said to himself that I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of getting to the point that I would get into med school. It’s so hard to get into med school, got into med school, the med school that he wants to go to, and then said no for my family. I’m going into a consultant and not saying that that’s the right decision, a wrong decision, but it’s an example of someone who I remember how hard it was once he committed to that.
Noam
So people in their late 20s, they go to law school. They say, like, if you want to be an educator, for example, or you want to be a teacher, it’s very hard to say to yourself, well, I spent all these years studying. I spent all these years going to, you know, going to law school, spend a lot of money on it.
Noam
And my this is the expectation because part of your identity, it’s so hard to change. It’s simple example. Let me give you a very minor example. Minor example. Let’s say you called Uber sunk cost fallacy.
Mijal
Right.
Noam
Uber you’re waiting five minutes. Ten minutes
Mijal
Right. And you don’t cancel it because you think you cancel it.
Noam
But but but I committed to it. Right. But there’s there’s 15 cabs just drove past me.
Noam
Then you commit yourself. You commit yourself to this ideology that like I ordered the.
Mijal
I don’t know if I would call it an ideology. I think it’s a psychology, you know what I mean? And it just, like, cut up in it and it’s it’s really hard to, you know, it’s just it’s it’s hard. There’s like elements of regret there. There’s it’s really hard.
Noam
Right. So the other thing before we get to solutions is last thing, which is shame versus guilt.
Noam
There’s a scene in Game of Thrones.
Mijal
Okay.
Noam
Game of Thrones. Where?
Mijal
Which season?
Noam
Yeah, exactly.
Noam
Which season? Season four, episode four.
Noam
I have no idea, but. And I can’t even say the names my wife makes on me all the time. She raises like, you know, you’re like D’Artagnan. There is no doubt in Game of Thrones, but it’s names like that anyway. So like there were the Queen is like walking through the streets and, like, there she’s naked. And she is basically.
Mijal
Cir–How do you pronounce it?
Mijal
I can’t pronounce it. I can’t pronounce things. Guys, can you pronounce.
Mijal
It for. Sorry, Circe.
Noam
Going through. And they’re throwing.
Mijal
And she’s not a good person, by the way.
Noam
My point is.
Mijal
No, actually.
Noam
Her person now. She’s killed so many people. She’s like a monster. Sorry. I’m like, oh.
Noam
She did bad things. Anyway, after doing bad things and being in an ancient culture, very public because you didn’t know many other figures. She is then brought out in front of everyone and is naked. That’s not just physical, it’s also metaphorical. She’s naked.
Mijal
She’s vulnerable.
Mijal
She’s shamed in front of her entire city.
Noam
They scream shame, shame. They throw things at her. That is, to me, a microcosm.
Mijal
Of social media.
Noam
Of social media. Exactly right. You’re who you are or who the world thinks you are. The curated version of yourself is who the world sees. You’re now out there. You now think that it’s like, very like like it doesn’t exist. It’s not a real thing. What is real? I’m real. You’re real. Social media curates us for everyone to think that what is out there is real.
Mijal
So you’re saying if that’s the reception we expect to get right, it’s much harder to actually be able to admit that we are wrong in public.
Noam
Yeah, because.
Noam
Because that becomes our public persona.
Mijal
Right?
Noam
I also becomes and then we identify as our actual persona.
Mijal
Right. I was going to say, like, I think it’s not only that we expect like a bad reaction if we mess up and we admit to it, and I think we internalize it, like, I think there’s something about social that just like makes you like you’re always doing, you know, when I’m, for example, when I was in vacation with my kids, I decided that I didn’t want to upload things online on social, partially because I know it would be all the time.
Mijal
Like, not in the moment. I would just be thinking about what am I putting up and how are they going to be watching it. And that kind of mentality makes it very hard to be able to be like present and to be able to think about what we are accountable to and who we want to be and how we want to grow.
Mijal
Right. Because you’re just like, you’re just living in like a curated reality and you’re not able. I think it just makes it much harder to have the space to internalize, to be self-reflective and to say, how am I wrong? Or how do I want to grow? Even if nobody online would agree with this, or see this or know about this, and it’s just about me and the person that I want to become.
Noam
And then there becomes a dystopian reality. That’s all the part disturbing reality is, there are two me’s. There’s me walking around the streets of New York, South Florida, LA, wherever we are. And then there’s the Me that’s in interaction with others on social media.
Mijal
Yeah. And it has to be like a polished. Like a polished.
Noam
Oh, gosh. And again, yeah.
Noam
We’re actually having two different personas, personas, whatever that reside within one individual. And it’s very hard to figure out who’s who.
Mijal
Yeah. And it takes over your mindset. And I think I think this time actually of like Yom Kippur, I think it really invites us to actually step back, step back from the curated self and actually figure out what’s the real me?
Mijal
Okay. So let’s talk about this. So there was an I think she was an anthropologist called Ruth Benedict. And she developed this idea of cultures that are shame cultures and cultures that are guilt cultures. She developed this idea in the 40s, and the way that she framed it. I’m not saying that I agree completely. I’m just going to say she was trying to help the US in its war against Japan, and she was basically saying there’s cultures like Japan where those are shame cultures in which basically you are performing in front of society, right?
Mijal
And if you do something wrong, you’re going to be shamed and face approbation from society, and you will have to go through some sort of expiation. Am I saying this right process, you know, in front of people and okay, I then she spoke about what she described as Western cultures, like guilt cultures, which I don’t know if I agree with that in terms of today, but it’s are cultures in which you can really think about, seen in a way that is more internal, right?
Mijal
And you can have your own process of atonement that is not necessarily about how society is viewing you. Let’s put this hair theory aside. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks so I’m going to I want to go to the way that he understood this by Jonathan Sacks really took these ideas of shame cultures and guilt cultures, and he applied it very strongly, although not the way that she did, like Japan versus the West.
Mijal
For him, it was it was different. He argued that that Jewish tradition really believed in sin culture. And he argued that actually shame, no guilt. I’m sorry culture.
Mijal
He argued that Jewish tradition really believed in guilt culture, and he argued that actually much of the West was adapting shame culture in ways that people would think about sin. So again, the main I think difference for him, this was a influence of like ancient Greece, for example. So a lot of the way to think about it in shame culture is if you do something wrong and society is judging you, society is not kind, right?
Mijal
And society will want you to actually like, feel shame and almost like pay a price for what you have done that is wrong. It is viewed as like your essence, like there’s like deep shame in what? In what you’re doing. Which reminds me a little bit, by the way, of like cancel culture, right? Of, like when you do something wrong, that it is something so acute that you cannot separate the person from the wrongdoing and the person has like, almost like nothing to do to fix what they have done.
Mijal
They are viewed as like inherently wrong in some way.
Noam
Does Rabbi Sacks in this story, in his in his distinction between guilt cultures and shame cultures? Does he talk about the Talmud? Where where one where the things the spouse who says to her husband, you know, you know what, I’m going with this.
Mijal
I do know where you’re going with this. Yeah.
Noam
She says. You don’t hate the sinner. Hate the sin.
Mijal
Yeah. Is it or. Yeah. So brewery was one of the she’s one of the five named heroines of the Talmud. I don’t know if he quotes her, but but she’s one of the five named heroines of the Talmud, and she was known as one of the few scholarly women who would often have little exchanges with male Torah scholars.
Mijal
And she would come up, you know, ahead. At.
Noam
School named for her, their schools named. For her
Mijal
Yes.
Noam
Yes she was. She was a strong.
Mijal
Yes. Smart. Sharp. Yeah.
Noam
Woman who was who held her own and then some.
Mijal
Yeah. And she has this whole exchange in which she basically she basically corrects an assumption that we say, like, you know, made the wicked ones be gone. And she says, it’s not the people, it’s the wicked actions. Right. Which allows.
Noam
Center, basically.
Mijal
Right. Right. Which were by sex is the essence of guilt culture that you can actually distinguish between the scene and the person and in which you can actually believe that the person that you’re accountable. It’s not like society that’s judging you. It’s God that’s judging you. Right?
Noam
So guilt is something that’s good. Shame is bad. Shame, I think, is Brene Brown. Maybe it’s Rabbi Sacks.
Mijal
She writes she writes a lot about this.
Noam
And she says that shame is I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad.
Mijal
I don’t even know. She says this like in this way.
Noam
I think it’s like that shame is I am bad guilt as I did something bad.
Mijal
Right. And which is very redemptive.
Mijal
Right, because it allows us to go into Yom Kippur and into this time, and to actually insist that we can separate between the bad things that we did. And you can say that I was wrong in that way. Right, because it doesn’t destabilize your entire identity. It’s like, okay, I did something wrong.
Noam
I thought incorrectly about this. I did something wrong about this. Then you separate your personhood from your action, from your thought, and you’re able to say, I am able. I have the the I speaking to one of my one of my friends who was actually a moderator on my in my Aspen fellowship. And he said to me, I asked him, does he believe in God?
Noam
He said, yeah. And then I asked him, what does it in? God interacts with the world? And he said to me, I believe that God gives us the greatest gift of all, which is something called free will, free choice. That’s what I believe. And we left it at that. And I think about it in terms of this a shame culture basically says I have no locus of control.
Noam
A shame culture says I am bad or I am good and the control is external to me. I can’t control anything that I did. I can’t control anything that I do, I am bad, I’m going to wallow in my badness. It was like, oh, awesome powers in Fat Bastard who said, I eat because I’m unhappy and I’m unhappy because I eat.
Mijal
So many references that, you know, go. You’re so pretty. References. this.
Noam
So. But this idea that I can’t control my.
Mijal
Like, Shawshank Redemption. Just kidding
Noam
That’s a powerful thing.
Noam
You know what? We’ll do a rewatchable Shawshank Redemption. But the it’s and that is I have no control guilt we view as this incredibly unhealthy feeling when we talk about guilt. Guilt doesn’t have a good rap in the West because.
Noam
It sounds good. Like I’m only doing this because I feel guilty. I’m only going to that event because I feel guilty. I’m only showing up to, you know, my great uncle’s 85th birthday party because I feel guilty. Maybe that was to specific, but, you know, like, that’s how we that’s how we bathe. But guilt is incredibly reductive, to use.
Mijal
Yeah. And I actually think know, I’m just going like, there’s something in our culture right now that is almost paradoxical. I think in the cultural waters that I swim in, there’s some voices that say, there are some things that you do that make you irredeemable, right? Like the cancel culture kind of like voice, like if you if you mess up in the following ways, like you’re just like bad, you’re part of like a class of, like, bad people.
Mijal
It’s awful. And then that same culture, though, has another voice that I also dislike which says like, nothing is your fault. It’s all the fault of like the way that you were shaped. It’s a little bit hypocritical. It’s critical because, like, it depends kind of like what you do, right?
Noam
I’m saying both of those follow the same worldview, which is it’s external. It’s external locus of control.
Mijal
Maybe that it’s like a binary also. And I don’t like either a voice like I don’t like either the voices, let’s say, you know, you’re you’re irredeemable or like it’s never your fault. And I think, I think Judaism has such a different way of viewing things with this guilt culture. The where by sex describes it, which is you are an autonomous human being.
Mijal
You stand. I’m going to use my religious language before God, or before a higher power, before some sort of moral system that transcends you. And you are accountable and you can change. And this is where I’m going to really disagree with Spinoza. I and I.
Mijal
You know, it took me a while. Yeah. But you know, no, I’m like, I’m a rationalist and I really like things to make sense and as, as even as a rationalist, I think the, the being able to change to the extent that the rabbis in the Talmud say, when you really repent, when you say you are wrong, when you acknowledge it, when you prepare it, they say it’s almost as if like you’re changing what happened, right?
Mijal
Like since become a what’s it called? Yes. And they become like good deeds. Right. And I think that that is almost like a gift. I view the idea of tissue, of repentance as almost grace, a Christian concept. There’s like there’s grace.
Mijal
There’s grace here. And I’m like, God gives us this gift to to. And I love that we have one time in the Jewish calendar that we’re basically given this amazing opportunity. And we are told, you can take responsibility, you can examine yourself and you can become better, not perfect, but better. And I always think, Noam, that we are in a society where we are pushed so much to think about what we produce, right?
Mijal
Our bank accounts, our, you know, our prestigious titles, like, you know, what we’re creating. And honestly, if we think about Jewish tradition, probably the most important product we will ever work on is ourselves, right? And if after a lifetime, God willing, you know, 120 years of like Yom Kippur, we can say I am wrong enough in a way that is productive and that can figure out how to make things better and improve ourselves, then that is like a magnificent gift that that I think that gives us.
Noam
I agree, I like that framing a lot. I like the framing was very helpful.
Mijal
Well, you can not agree with what I just said.
Noam
Well, no.
Mijal
I think I’m kidding. I’m kidding. I’m just saying I’m like I’m like, I’m.
Mijal
Like, there’s a gift from God.
Noam
It’s a beautiful gift. And thinking of ourselves as the product, which, you know, in different ways, social media has taught us that we are the product that’s a different sort of.
Mijal
Where someone else is. Someone else is making money off us with the crazy algorithm. And, you know, this is this is different. Like where I’m a product that stands before God and, you know, or, you know, if you don’t believe in God, like, think about after 120 years, like you don’t want to be the same person.
Mijal
But but yes.
Mijal
But believing that you can evolve is probably the most important prerequisite to evolving, and probably the most important thing to allow us to say I was wrong. Because if you view that as a redemptive step to self-improvement, then it takes away all the shame around it.
Noam
I mean, Patrick Lynch, only one of the great leaders of leadership, he wrote great books on how to be a leader. One of the things that he says is like to put on your wall or five different statements. One of them is, I made a mistake. Just put that on your wall. I made a mistake or say to yourself, I made a mistake.
Noam
The ability to say I was wrong. I made a mistake, I was wrong, I made a mistake. What it does is it brings trust from everyone else as well. Because it’s not. If you become part of the idea that you held on to along, that’s that shame culture, that’s this thinking that I am what I did and therefore I can never change.
Noam
I can never evolve. My mind will never be shaped by anything else. I’ll never change my opinion on something. Then it’s not very fun to work with that kind of person.
Mijal
Yeah, yeah.
Mijal
You know what this reminds me of? There’s this. You know, people have different temperaments, and I think that some people can be very defensive. And I’m not even like judging that. I’m just saying, like, we are wired differently. And I think this can be harder or easier for some people. So there’s one tool that I learned that can really help, especially for those of us who get very defensive when we try, when we are, when we have to admit we are wrong.
Mijal
And that tool is can you admit to like being 5% wrong? Right? Right. So again, like let’s say like you were talking to like you know, your parent, your spouse, your colleague or whatever, and there’s something there that’s really hard and you have to figure out. Am I wrong? And that is very scary to say I was wrong.
Mijal
But if you can say, you know what, 5%, 5% I was wrong. It makes you feel like your world is not falling apart, your identity is not falling apart, and you know that 5%. Okay, so when I own something and then maybe I can improve 5%.
Noam
That’s good. That’s that’s permission. That gives permission.
Mijal
I think so. And it’s. Less scary.
Noam
So going to this. Year what is something that you’re 5% wrong about.
Mijal
No I’m not doing.
Mijal
You know there’s actually a discussion in the Talmud. There’s rabbis that like they basically argue, should you be confessing your sins out loud or not? And some think yes and some say no. It’s like between you and God, I am of the latter opinion, but but if you want if you want to confess right now.
Noam
The other side of this.
Mijal
I’m just saying, if you believe in that, I’m all yours.
Noam
I have to think about it more. I’m sure there are plenty of things, but I’m going to use that tool. I’m going to use that tool of as 5% wrong or as ten maybe, maybe even 20% wrong.
Mijal
No. But if you’re even if you’re in a conversation and and and. You’re like.
Noam
Absolutist worldview. Yes. That makes it so hard to to to pivot on anything.
Mijal
Let’s say that let’s say with one of my siblings that I can say, like, you know, you’re never there for me in the way that I am there for you and we and it becomes very fraud, like, what do you mean? And you bring and you say, could you could we is there a 5% truth in what I’m saying?
Mijal
And I think it’s much easier to say, you know what.
Mijal
Like I’ll own the 5%. Don’t even go to 20%.
Noam
Is that one last question for you?
Mijal
Sure.
Noam
Last question. Is there any downside or danger in feeling and thinking that actually I can change the past? Or is there any downside of this way of thinking? What would be the doubt?
Mijal
Yeah, I think the downside. I actually think there’s a huge downside if you do it wrong. What I mean to say is like this. There’s a huge downside in both interpersonal relationships and in spiritual growth. When we become almost like when we say, yeah, like the past doesn’t really matter, I can change it easily, but we don’t do the work of repair. Right?
Noam
Well, you don’t take it seriously enough, right?
Mijal
And, you know, Maimonides. And others.
Noam
Get out of jail. Free card sort of thing.
Mijal
Yeah. It’s like my monitors and others really lay out in a pretty deep way what it means to to change. And it includes, you know, at the meeting, they did something wrong. It includes regret. It includes, you know, verbal confession. And it also includes, again, depending on what it is. It includes interpersonal relationships asking for forgiveness. And then if, let’s say if you stole, you have to like, you know, pay it back and pay back even more.
Mijal
And it includes also a way of setting things up so it doesn’t happen again in the future. So if you don’t do that work.
Noam
That’s real work, right?
Noam
And the ideal form is to actually be in the exact same position that you were in and to not do the thing or to do a total corrective of what you did. That is what he calls to complete repentance, because that shows the ability that you I am not who I was yesterday, right.
Mijal
So I. Like the. Finished product.
Mijal
Yeah, I like the idea of repair. Repair to me is a really important concept, which is to take accountability for when we do something wrong. So, so yeah, going back to your question, I think if we think, oh yeah, like, you know, New Day doesn’t matter who I hurt. Doesn’t matter what I did like. All good. It’s like no Jewish tradition actually believes it does matter.
Mijal
And it believes you could repair. So that’s that’s where I think it can be unhelpful. But but I think the moment that you do repair and if any, I don’t know if you ever had this experience when you actually do repair, there’s something that feels really, really powerful about it to say, like, I know I did something wrong and I was able to repair and now I can move on, but you’re moving on as a different person.
Noam
Okay. Well, let’s take these ideas. For the holidays. Let’s not be shameful. I am not the sin. I did something wrong. Two different things.
Mijal
Yeah.
Noam
Let’s take what Rabbi Yosef taught us.
Mijal
Yeah. And I think, I think the more that we can be hopeful about our ability to, to repair, once we name that we did that, we were wrong. I just think it’s redemptive.
Noam
Give grace.
Mijal
Give grace. Yes.
Noam
That’s not just a Christian concept, by the way. In Judaism, God is both avenue, our father and our King. He’s not just our king. He’s also our father, our Tati. You know, that means he’s he’s our.
Mijal
I would say parent.
Noam
He’s very good. He’s our parent. Do you say you know.
Mijal
I do.
Mijal
Okay. We can go into gender liturgy later. Gender liturgy.
Noam
Right. He’s our parent. And when God is our parent, God, if you have good parents, there have unhealthy parents, by the way, then that’s that’s one thing. But if your parents give you grace and if your parents.
Mijal
Want you to.
Noam
Grow, want you to grow, and if your parents don’t identify you as the thing that you did something that’s not awesome and you change, and we all, I think not we all, many of us, not we all, many of us have parents have taught us how to be children. Right? And being a child is someone that changes over time.
Noam
Someone that involves someone that’s not committed exactly to what they did yesterday, and they have the grace to say maybe 5% could have that.
Mijal
Could change, right? Right. Yeah.
Noam
That’s why I’m going to go in this holiday with.
Mijal
Yeah.
Mijal
And I’m going to prepare it together.
Noam
Yeah.
Mijal
Thanks so much.