Noam
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam. Today it’s just me, here to let you know that we are taking this week off for the July 4th holiday. You know that we’ve started a series of episodes on the idea of “family” through the Jewish lens.
One of the concepts we’re going to explore in this series is the Jewish people as an extended family. We recorded a conversation with Rabbi Shai Held, author of Judaism Is About Love, that digs deeper into this. Mijal and I were so hyped after this taping, you are really going to love this episode. We’ll also be talking to actress and philanthropist Moran Atias who has a really moving and personal story touching on this topic.
To get you ready for these discussions, we’re re-airing an episode this week that breaks down the idea of Jews as an “extended family.” People confuse Judaism all the time. We are bigger than just a religion, which totally confuses people. So this concept is really significant for Jews, and for people who want to understand Judaism.
Take a listen and as always, let us know what you think.
Noam
All right, so today I wanna talk to you about this topic. I wanna talk to you about the topic of, ready for it?
Mijal
Wait, no, first of all, it’s cool to do this in person. Yes, I think so. Yes. Yeah.
Noam
Yeah, it’s great. We’re going to be doing a lot of this together. Yeah. IRL. So I agree. It’s great to see you. It’s just good to be Shabbat table. I’m excited for this Shabbat dinner. When it does happen, it’s going to be epic.
Yeah, but it won’t be recorded. won’t. Well, yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s true.
Do you prefer water challah or you have to have water challah, right? Like egg challah, challah with egg in it or water challah? Both. No, right. Then you have issues with the… Yeah.
What’s the other?
Mijal
I know, I have both. Just not too much sugar.
referring to how Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews have slightly different requirements for what we can say ha-motzi over, which is not the topic of today’s…
But it kind of is. It kind of is. Because the topic is, what is Judaism? Or is Judaism a religion? Okay? So that’s what I want to talk to you about today. Is Judaism a religion? What is Judaism? Now, you might say, well, you wouldn’t say this because you are wonky.
Okay.
Mijal
Okay. Thanks.
But you wouldn’t say you’re an intellect you’re a scholar, okay, right now Like I would like if I were to ask a random person in the street, what is Judaism? They wouldn’t be like, oh, this is an interesting question. What is Judaism? Let me explain to you what you
Okay, let’s see what I to say now.
Noam
Here’s what Judaism. Okay, that’s my wonky impression. Okay, but the random person on the street would say I don’t know there’s Christianity There’s Islam there’s Judaism and so Judaism’s and of course, there’s Hinduism. There’s Buddhism. There’s Jainism There’s a lot of different isms and religions out there, but The regular person on the street I think would typically just be like it’s a religion that believes and like they would probably say something about Moses and Splitting the sea and maybe Passover something like that. don’t know something like that. That’s what that’s what Judaism is
Maybe a small group of people, maybe that’s what it is. It’s a belief in the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible and the God of the Hebrew Bible. Okay, cool. Well, it’s actually a lot more complicated than that. And that’s what I want to talk to you about. I want to talk to you about the complication of Judaism as a religion, when and how it became a religion, because it really matters for the current political climate.
and it really matters in terms of the broader relationship between Jews across the world.
So now you’re basically saying there is a broad assumption, let’s say in America, that the Judaism is a religion. And you want to question that and that it has deep implications for who we are today. How was that for a wonky?
Exactly. It really does I’m gonna give you I’m gonna give you the one to ten on wonkiness a great at the end Okay, thanks. So Here’s here’s why
Mijal
By the way, before you start, I actually wrote my qualifying paper for my doctorate trying to figure out if Judaism is a religion. So we’re going to have fun here. But I’ll try to not get wonky.
was gonna say, was that, were you trying to not be wonky there, trying to be wonky? So you’re qualifying, what was it? Not your dissertation, but you’re qualifying.
Just warning you.
Mijal
Yeah, like we had this thing that before we could, sorry, my candidacy paper, before we could give a proposal for a dissertation, it was a long time.
I wonder what no I’m laughing because I wonder what you’re like as a litigator because it when I called you because I called you wonky you’re like I’m not wonky and now you’re talking about your Okay, okay, so what okay, so here’s why it matters to me. Here’s why it really matters to me I’ve given talks in different contexts and been with students across all different types of backgrounds Jewish non-jewish doesn’t matter at the background and They often like to ask what is anti-semitism? What is it like and they want to know a quick definition? What is anti-semitism?
All right,
Noam
And I start that off by exploring this question. Well, you can’t understand what the hatred of Judaism or Jewish people is until you understand what Judaism is. Like, what is the hatred of if you can’t define what Judaism is? Does that make sense? Sure. Otherwise, how do you possibly characterize or define what the hatred for the people is if you can’t even define what Judaism is?
What I’ve done in the past and the way I think about it is there’s Christianity, there’s Judaism, there’s Islam. What are those things? Those are… Those are religions, right? Like, meaning that’s a belief system. Okay, but that’s just one element of Judaism. I then ask questions like, there’s Noam and there’s Michal. Do we believe the same things?
I’m going to say no.
Okay, I mean sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do we look the same? I feel like we kinda look alike. No, we don’t look alike. We don’t look alike. Okay, we have different backgrounds. Where are from originally?
I don’t think so, no.
Mijal
South America and the Middle East.
Wrong answer. The answer was Israel. Okay, fine. But yes, you’re from South Africa and the Middle East. But I’m saying, okay, fine. And I’m from…
be America and Europe.
Yeah, exactly. America and my grandparents were all born in the US, but from Eastern Europe, originally. Now, that’s not really true where each of us were originally from, because we come from a more original place, which is what it means to be Jewish, which is Judea, which is land of Israel. And so they’re all different types of religious beliefs that are part of the Jewish identity.
and all different backgrounds of Jewish identity and all different aspects of Jewish identity, but we all come from an original place. The original place is Judea. Is that true, by the way? What I just said.
Mijal
Which part? Like, we all come from India?
That to be Jewish means that you come from Judea.
I would expand that a little bit because it’s probably tribes that weren’t in Judea. And we’ve also kind of like expanded through conversions and people who joined the Jewish people. But I think, Noam, the point that you’re getting at, if I have it correctly, I think you’re trying to bring up the stakes of this conversation.
Why does it matter whether Judaism is a religion? Well, one of the reasons is that at a time of rising anti-Semitism, we have to understand what it means to be Jewish or the many things that it means to be Jewish partially in order to understand anti-Semitism and how to counter it at this moment.
Yes, that is a huge part of it. I want to read to you a quote from a rabbi, if I may. A rabbi by the name of Adin Steinsaltz. He says, who is a great, great, great scholar, prolific author, student of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and he says, the Bible calls the Jews the house of Israel or the house of Jacob, meaning that the Jews are principally a family.
Noam
This family began as the small group of the offspring of Abraham. With natural increase they became a clan and then a tribe and ultimately a nation. But in spite of its extraordinary proliferation, this tribe and eventually the nation remained what they had always been a single family. The Jews are thus the people who belonged to this family of old, the house of Israel.
I love that quote. I’m going to steal it from you. I feel like I’ve been saying this. I’ve been feeling this so much in the last two years, both emotionally but also intellectually. Okay.
I will get it for you.
Noam
Excuse me for one second, sorry. have something in my eye. I’ve got something in my eye, like dust. Just flew in my eye. It made me allergic. My God. Sorry. No, I just need to get that out. I think it’s out. Okay, we’re good. Yeah, continue.
Weird. You want to take a break?
Mijal
All right. Sorry. I was going to say, in the past two years, both intellectually and also really emotionally, on a very primal level, when I’ve had to explain what it means to be a Jew, the best definition I’ve been able to give is to be a member of a family. Yeah. Yeah.
So that framing of a member of a family, because I do that also. I say we’re not a race, like Hitler said we’re a race. I heard someone on, I really can’t stand when we do this. I saw this on, I don’t know, some news channel where a pro-Israel advocate was explaining how Jews are a race. And by the way, some of these people get out there and they’re influencers.
What? Yeah, yeah.
Noam
And it’s dangerous because they talk about things that they know not.
Yes, Noam should be the only influencer. You should be no, we are a multi ethnic, multiracial people that transcends race.
you. Thanks. But there but it’s Judaism erase.
Noam
Okay, and why would we say that Judaism is not a religion? Because the obvious thing is to say Judaism is a religion. Like you and I both say Judaism is a family, and I always wonder, do people hear that as like me being cutesy? You know what mean? Like does it come off as like, we’re a family.
Well, I don’t know what people think when you say that, But does that sound? Why don’t we take a step back? Why don’t we unpack a little bit? When we say, is Judaism a religion, I think we need to define not just Judaism, but we need to define what religion is. What’s a religion? So maybe I’ll speak more biographically. I’ll explain why I wrote my candidacy paper on this. I know for me, a lot of my thinking around this was shaped by my personal experience that I grew up, as you know, in a Middle Eastern Sephardic.
family, and then when I moved to the States, I spent most of my time in a Persian Jewish community. So I was very, very much influenced by these experiences and the way that I thought about what it means to be Jewish. And then when I started going to more, I’m going to use sloppy terms, like more Western liberal environments, and started seeing the way that Judaism was presented there, I started feeling like, there is a disconnect between the way that I grew up
Jewishly and what I’m feeling here. So let me give you some examples. So one thing that I noticed is that, again, I’m using this term sloppily, like in Western liberal environments, the focus around Judaism and religion is around faith. It’s about belief. When you started talking, Noam, about Judaism as a religion, what the random person in the street would think, you were using mostly the term of belief. Jews believe this. Jews believe that. They have the following faith.
So one big aspect of religion, and I am following the scholars here, we think religion was really molded in a Christian environment. So one major aspect to it is the primacy of faith. Faith is so important in Christianity. I know, grace is achieved through faith. Salvation is achieved through faith. Spiritual kinship comes through faith. Faith is major, major, major. And it’s very different in Judaism. We’re gonna get to that in a second, but right now we’re talking about religion, right?
Mijal
So that’s one aspect of religion and Judaism’s religion, the primacy of faith. Another aspect would be that there is, and I’m not using the perfect terms here, but there is an assumption and it’s like an assumption born from the enlightenment that there is a distinction between the political public realm. Am I saying realm right? perfect. Political public realm and the private individual realm. So basically so much of
Like the way that we speak about separation of church and state in America and in the modern West, that assumption is born from an understanding that religion can and should be contained in certain aspects of your life. So you can be a religious person in your church, in your synagogue, in your mosque, in your home. And then when you come into the public, I would say political realm, you are able to come in without the same assumptions that you have in your private realm.
So distinction between the private and the public, between the political and the religious, is very much the way that I understand it, part of the way we think about religion in the West.
Can you explain the public-private thing a little bit more? What does that look like? Are you saying that in public, the idea is to not show yourself as a religious whatever it is?
Well, you know what, let me maybe like compare and contrast just to get an example. If you think about most, states, let’s say in the Middle East, let’s put Israel aside for a second for this conversation. Most states around the Middle East, they don’t assume that the state should be completely divorced from Islam. Okay.
Noam
goes to find as a Muslim state.
You don’t have that assumption that you should have like a neutral almost, right? A political sphere and then the religion should be in private. They don’t have that assumption. That is an assumption that was born from the Enlightenment, right? And an assumption that is very much alive in certain parts of the liberal West. Of course, we can complicate this in so many ways. But part of the reason that I bring this up is that, you know, let me take a step back now. Let me just say one thing and then I’ll give another example.
I think part of the conversation around whether and how Judaism is and is not a religion, we want to talk about in which ways there are some Jews who have made it a religion and in which way there is assumption that it is a religion from the outside. I want to complicate both. Fair?
Yeah, meaning you want to almost like steel man it make like or or talk about because I’m very I’m interested in also the conversation of making sure that We could make a compelling case for why Judaism actually is and it’s always been a religion Yeah, I want to also talk about that aspect. want to I want to steel man that I want to make sure that we that we go through the Argumentation of why Judaism is a religion
Is there religion?
Mijal
OK, so you know what? Let me tell you how I see things, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree. OK? I’m going to take a step back, make very sloppy historical arguments. I won’t hold it against you. Am I being too wonky? No. All right. If we go back, let’s say, 600 years, all right? Where are we right now? Medieval times. You’re making mess. Oh my god. Don’t ask me. I’m like, where’s Chad G.B.T.? Sorry. If we go back to medieval times, all right?
I mean the fact that, yeah.
Noam
Bye.
Noam (18:41.87)
Give me a century.
Okay, let’s go to the 15th century. Okay, fine. All right? Before the end, like…
It’s like fourteen hundreds fifteen centuries. My brain does alright fourteen hundreds
Okay. So if we look at before the enlightenment, all right? Deal. And if we look at Judaism back then, I would say that it’s hard to define it in the way that we think about religion in modern terms today.
How do we think of religion in modern terms? We’re gonna get there, we’re gonna get there, okay. Keep going, keep going, I’m with you, I’m with you.
Mijal
I’m going to get there. I just said the primacy of faith, okay, and the distinction between the public and the private. Okay. Okay.
Yeah, okay, keep going, keep going.
OK. The argument that I want to make or that I want us to explore is that there were things that happened in the world and inside the Jewish people that meant that in some ways Judaism did become a religion in the spirit that we’re describing right now. In some ways, it resisted it. And there’s a lot of reasons to understand why so many people assume it’s a religion. Yeah?
Yeah, keep going. Yeah, was that okay? So let me go. So I’ll go to the first part. If we look at Western Europe and we think about emancipation and enlightenment and like all this massive. Yes, yes. All this massive, like political, philosophical trends that transformed society and transformed the Jewish polity. Right. So some of the transformation was actually a belief that
I want to hear it.
Noam
now the 19th century.
Mijal
you could have citizenship that is separate from religion. So until then, Christians were the majority in a country and Jews were like, you a little bit separate. And now again, I’m simplifying with emancipation. They are told, you know what, you can become part of this country. But part of the trade off is your Judaism, and I’m not saying they said this, I’m translating it. Your Judaism needs to become a religion, which means you are Jewish at home. That’s where you have your belief system.
But when you come to the public sphere you’re a Frenchman. Yeah, you’re a Frenchman. Yes.
Okay, so that’s exactly what took place in the French Sanhedrin in the in the first couple decades of the nineties Tell the story It’s okay 1807 maybe our producer was
This is a fascinating story. we tell it? Yeah, yeah, tell it. No, no, no. I don’t have the details. OK, but I don’t have the details.
Mijal
I don’t know. from, so Napoleon. Yeah, yeah, Napoleon. So Napoleon, this was part of like the emancipation process of the.
gonna check with our producers. get that right? Okay. But I’m not looking at it. I’m being a good boy. I’m staring at you.
1807.
You have the notes in front of you.
No, in this case, the whole point is you look at your notes if we have a question. OK, so it’s funny, by the way. I learned about this because I learned about people who criticize this. But in 1807, Napoleon, who part of what he was doing was also offering emancipation to Jews. And he asked to convene a Sanhedrin. So just in terms of lingo, so Sanhedrin, what’s the technical term? It’s like a grand.
Noam
But I didn’t look at them, I’m not looking at them.
Mijal
Great court. Right. It’s like a.
Yeah. Yeah, think it’s like technically I could be wrong about this, a Greek word that we say in Hebrew.
Well, point is in a dream is that it actually has legal authority traditionally in terms of taking decisions for the Jewish people. Right.
was just thinking as we’re doing this, we should try to do a mechanic where you can actually ask the producer as part of the show. I like that. That’s what Bill does with Kyle. I know.
Yeah, okay. Are we too well over the place? okay. Okay, the Senate Drain, like the Great Court was traditionally was seen as the main legislative body that could actually make certain big legal decisions for the Jewish people. And and it was convened in Paris, I think it was. Yeah. Can you your notes now?
Noam
And I’m gonna reel this back in.
Noam
Where was convened yeah ask our producer okay? don’t know where it’s coming. It was in France Marseille. I don’t know okay Paris. I don’t care It’s in France. It’s in France Paris Paris is in France, okay?
Thank
Mijal
was in Paris.
But I don’t like not knowing my details. No, can you look at your notes, please? And they were asked to affirm, right, that the Jews, gosh. Thank you. Can you tell me the exact language they were asked to affirm? I don’t want to get this wrong. It’s history.
It’s not in there. It’s not in my nose.
Noam
You’re too great. It was in Paris.
Noam
Jews as
What? I want to know the exact language.
What is Judaism? French Sanhedrin convened by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1807 with the core question, what is Judaism was raised and debated in a high stakes political and theological setting. We are a religion, not a nation.
Right, but the conclusion? I wonder if they used those words back then or if it’s us saying that. Yeah, or at least the way that non-anticipated Wikipedia refers to it.
my memory.
Noam
The assembled rabbis and leaders walked a careful line. They framed Judaism primarily as a religion, emphasizing well to the state, France, the religious not political nature of Jewish law, the legitimacy of civil marriages, military service, and taxes. they said, the Israelites of France consider France their fatherland. They regard it as their country, and they are under obligation to defend it when called
OK, great. But they didn’t use our terms, so we’ll just clarify that. So yes, so in 1807 in Paris, Napoleon Bonaparte convened a Jewish Sanhedrin, this great court that traditionally can make big legislative proclamations and decisions on behalf of the Jewish people. And part of what this group of scholars and rabbis were basically debating in the shadow of emancipation and enlightenment is, what does it mean to be a Jew?
at a time in which you can, for the first time, become a citizen of a state. And what they ended up really emphasizing is how important it was for French Jews to see France as their fatherland and motherland. I don’t even know which words they use. To follow the laws of the state, to serve in the military if needed. So basically to see themselves as part of the French nation.
even if they had mosaic laws in the privacy of their homes and synagogue. So there is, in a very simplistic way, I want to just say, part of what happens in the wake of enlightenment and emancipation, and Professor Liora Betnitsky writes about this in a fabulous book called How Judaism Became a Religion.
was the first person, by the way, in 2014, in my life that I started thinking about this question from her, from articles that she wrote.
Mijal
And it’s a book. Shout out to her. But we see here some internal Jewish dynamics that in response to changing circumstances, especially in Western Europe, are beginning to reshape Judaism into a religion, into primacy of faith, into the distinction between the public and the private. We have, by the way, I’ll just add here.
We have the emergence of the reform movement and denomination is also part of this. again, I’m saying this. Yeah, I’m saying Western Europe. So Eastern Europe is a little bit different. But in Germany, the reform movement, basically, they affirm the importance of mosaic ethics, right, and values. But they reject mosaic law as obligatory, partially, again, using our language, not theirs.
That’s more in Germany at this point.
Mijal
being a little bit anachronistic because they are fashioning Judaism into a religion that can fit comfortably into their environments where they’re at right now.
And 80 years later in the United States, in their famous 1885 platform, their reform movement takes out all aspects of nationalism altogether.
reform of them.
Mijal
Right, so we can talk about the way that this has implications in terms of Israel and Zion. if you are, let’s say, if you want to, if you are, let’s give a generous rendition of this. Let’s say that you live in America or in Germany, and it’s so important for you to prove to your neighbors, right? That this is who you are, you are part of them. So how can you open up your prayer book and say,
I want to return to Zion one day. You know, I pray and I weep for Jerusalem. How can you say any of those things? Wouldn’t that sound disloyal, right, in terms of being a good American or a good German? So they stripped aspects that had to do with nationalism from the prayer book.
And that’s why it’s very hard when you go back to the story of the front French sunhedrin It’s hard to I’ve always when when teaching this story I’ve always asked students to think about it in one of two ways when the French sunhedrin or any Document that we read and learn when they make this proclamation that the Jews are essentially primarily a religion Secondarily a nation, but they’re fully loyal to France is that
them saying what they’re saying honestly or are they saying something in order to fit in? How do you know if it’s authentic or how do you know if it’s not? It’s very hard to figure that out. We don’t know if the French Great Court meant it or if they were doing it to avoid being rejected by France.
Right, two things. I’m pretty sure there were some Sephardic rabbis in France who were not part of this Sanhedrin and I disagreed. I think I wrote an article about this once. But Noam, I want to just sharpen something and clarify it. When I say that I don’t agree that Judaism is fully a religion, I am not, I don’t want to cast questions upon
Mijal
Jews who are loyal to other nations. You know what I’m saying? Like, I just want to make sure that it’s clear here. Like, I’m not saying like they were actually this loyal to France. I’m not saying that. I think that they were being asked to prove their loyalty in ways that also asked them to erase part of their Judaism. in my opinion, you could have had both. You could have said, I’m part of the Jewish people across time and space, and I am also absolutely loyal to France. And I no question about it. So I want to just like, it’s important for me to name that.
and that.
Noam
Al-Tarabi, the first great rabbi of Chabad, he actually made this argument that I don’t have the exact… We’re talking at this time, in the beginning of the 19th century, he made an argument that it’s better to be not emancipated living under the Russian Tsar and be fully Jewish the way it should be done authentically, genuinely, than to be emancipated in France and to have your Judaism, or in Germany, and have your Judaism kind of not
What decades are we talking about?
Noam
The one-shanak.
preferred this sort of Judaism that’s not emancipated, which I think is just so interesting to see these two different elements.
Right, and I think what you’re bringing up, which is so critical to all this, is that acceptance for minorities, most often they’re not, or tolerance, are often conditional. Yeah, exactly. Right? It’s often like, OK, we’ll accept you. We’ll give you legal protection or social acceptance. But, and it’s not always made explicitly, know, sometimes it’s very clear, but implicit. But you’re going to have to refashion yourself in order to belong here.
you can’t have that full Jewish identity then.
Right, and then you have to negotiate that, which is tricky of course. But I would say, but let’s just be honest here, I definitely think that when we study especially the rise of the Reform Movement, there were plenty of Jews who…
Mijal
agreed with this wholeheartedly. They believed that part of emancipation and enlightenment was also to emancipate Judaism from something they thought was obscure and primitive. Right. It’s archaic. And that they are archaic and that part of what they were doing is making it in their opinion something more modern and advanced.
liberating Judaism from itself.
Exactly. And there, of course, you had all of this disagreement, like inside of the Jewish people. How do we respond to this? But let me let me go back to some more modern times or forward to more modern times.
Can I could I want to talk about faith for a second and then we go to modern times? Yeah I want because there’s an aspect of the faith question that I just I’ve been thinking my head that I want to challenge you on okay, or I don’t have challenges right word, but I So let’s say I make the argument that Judaism is not a race Judaism is not a religion. It’s not merely a culture It is a people it is a family that has a religion. Okay, so quote Rabbi Dean Steins, also
Challenge me go for it
Noam
But let’s talk about Judaism as a faith, even prior to the Emancipation, even prior to the Enlightenment. I’m going to say different aspects throughout history. When you were talking, I was thinking there is a line, we say that Christianity is more about faith than Judaism is, but there’s a line in the Hebrew Bible that says, that the righteous person according to his amunah, according to his faithfulness, belief, will live.
that this is an idea from the prophets, that faith is actually what guides the righteous person. Fast forward a long time right now, I’m just going through what’s in my head. You have Maimonides writing who lived from 1138 to 1204, and he’s speaking about these 13 principles of faith, that faith matters and he lays it all out.
and through 13 principles that were debated from each of those principles are debated by another great rabbi as part of the Jewish experience, but 13 principles of faith, right? So you have that clearly as part of Judaism, that person on the street that we’re talking about at the outset, it wouldn’t be outlandish for them to say, yeah, Judaism is a religion that believes certain things and that belief and faithfulness really matters. Not just from the Emancipation, but…
Always. And throughout Judaism, in the Ten Commandments, you have the first statement, which is either a statement or prerequisite to the Ten Commandments, depending on your perspective, that God, I am Hashem, your God, that took you out of Egypt. You can’t have other gods. You have to be faithful to me. You have to believe in me or have a deep relationship with me, depending on your perspective. Okay? So what would you say…
to those questions that I just raised about it being, I think I demonstrated in many ways that actually Judaism is a faith and whether or not you Jew choose to believe in these things, you can believe in that, but we have, I’m just thinking out loud, there’s also the counter to what I’m saying. Okay, do the counter, do the counter. My brain was going, that’s my brain does, it’s like a dangerous game. I’m like, wait, no, no, that’s not true.
Mijal
Well, let me do that.
Mijal (34:46.732)
Well, let’s first say, like, of course, there’s truth in what you’re saying, that faith and belief are extremely important in Judaism. And there are so many books and philosophers and theology. And we can talk a lot about what it means for a righteous person to have, I don’t know if I wouldn’t trust the lemona as faith, to have a certain. Yeah, very tricky word. Loyalty, faithfulness, constancy.
I said maybe it’s faithfulness.
Mijal
That’s, you know, it’s very different in faith. And agreed that there is a covenant with God and all of that is true. Let me put it in the following way. Faith or belief are not prerequisites for belonging in Judaism. They are not. That’s what I mean by primacy. OK, I don’t believe again. I’m not a Christian theologian and I feel always uncomfortable yet. Yet. Actually, good. I really enjoy Christian theology. It’s so much fun just to
You could be like the reverse Christine Hague No? Okay
Okay, all right. You see what I did there? Let’s cut that. So, but I think it would be, I think most faithful Christians would have a hard time with somebody belonging to the church if that person rejects, let’s say, Jesus, right? They would have a hard time with that. For us, for Jews, right? You can be an atheist Jew.
You can be a secular Jew. You can have none of the 13 principles of faith that Maimonides so eloquently wrote about. And you will still be Jewish and still belong. What does that mean? It means that according to traditional Jewish law and non-traditional Jewish law, like according to all consensus mainstream opinions in Judaism, there is no faith prerequisite in order to belong. I am bound in covenant to somebody
if they’re part of this Jewish family, they were born to it or converted to it, right? And I will never ask them as a litmus test, what do you believe in for me to feel bound to them? They are part of the family. So that’s the primacy. Of course, then we can talk about faith. I’m a religious person. I believe in God. But it’s not the prerequisite or the, is there a better word for that? Like the, what’s it called? Like when you do an equation, ignore me.
Noam
So what you’re saying though, Michal, is a Talmudic idea. And the Talmudic idea is Yisrael afa pisha chata yisrael hu. That a Jew, even if he or she goes through to a different direction, errs or sins, depending on how you translate the word chata, a Jew that goes in a different direction, that strays, is a Jew. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.
Yeah, I would say it’s not just on music, I say it’s biblical. I would say like in the Bible, like Genesis, Exodus, right? Before we have Sinai, we have a family, right? Before we have Sinai, Sinai, I’m using Sinai here to refer to the revelation of God. So I’m using it almost as like a standard for religion, like that feeling of connection to God. Before that, you have a people, right? You have a family, you have a tribe, you have a clan.
And then during the prophets, the Jewish people are constantly worshipping idols, which is one of the three carnal sins of Judaism. And that is an indication that their belief system has gone awry, and nevertheless, they are fully Jewish.
Yeah, in some ways it’s almost like we’re stuck. It’s like, tough luck. You know what I mean? You stop believing.
Right.
Noam
So we’ve said like kind of the, not the negative aspect, but like the Jewish people are bound to each other through what Rabbi Joseph Baris Olivace called a shared fate, meaning that we have 3,000 years of, if the Holocaust is going to happen to one of us, it’s going to happen to all of us. If the Inquisition is going to happen to one of us, it’s going to happen to all of us. When they’re going to kick the Jewish people out of the United Kingdom,
after 1144 William of Norwich or Blois of 1171, it’s not going to happen to one of you, it’s going to happen to all of you. You know, the Damascus libel of 1840 is not going to be an issue with one of you, it’s going be all of you. That’s this covenant of fate. We’re stuck together, but there’s also a separate side of Jewish people, of being Jewish, which is more than just this fate, it’s something much more proactive and positive. To be Jewish means to be part of something. What is that positive thing?
There’s many. I don’t know which one you have in mind. I don’t have any. I mean, are you asking me the positive aspects of being a
Have one of mine.
Noam
I’m just building off of what you just said like where we’re we’re stuck with the we’re stuck sounds by the way You’re not Ashkenazi, but it sounds very Ashkenazi almost like we have to do this. We’re here We’re doing but like it’s not what it’s about. It’s not because we’re stuck that we’re doing this. It’s
What? What is it? I don’t know if I’m responding exactly to what you’re asking me. What is it? But I do want to talk about the positive aspects of this or positive in terms of what I love so much. I love the fact that I am in relationship with other Jews who don’t believe the way that I do. I think that’s amazing. I love the fact that we can have a certain breadth and pluralism.
Right? That you cannot have in some other faith communities that are more narrow. I love the fact that I can feel a connection to someone I’ve never met before from a different country, speak different languages, but we’re like part of the same family. So it’s like a meeting of fourth cousin. I think there’s so much goodness there and vitality and also vibrancy that comes from this. We are so diverse.
like in terms of opinions, of backgrounds, of the things we care about. There’s just like the diversity that we embody is really amazing. So I don’t know if that’s the question that you were asking, Noam, but to me, all of these things are magnificent. And the reason that when I think about, you know, the way that Jews reacted to emancipation and enlightenment, and in some cases became more of a religion, it doesn’t upset me that they would, like, know, proclaim loyal to France. I am a loyal American, for example.
But that often came with a demand to not have this sense of peoplehood, not see yourself as part of a family that transcends time and space. So that’s why I think it’s important to in some ways push back against the assumption that we are just a religion. There’s some aspects of Judaism, like you said, are, you know, I’m using…
Mijal
like the term religion like in an everyday term that are religious, right? That have to do with belief and faith in God. But we are more than that. We, to be a Jew is to be part of a people, is to be part of a culture, is to be part of an ethnicity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that. So like it’s, it’s we, shared land, right? And I think, you know what, put Zionism aside. Sometimes the term Zionism can feel, okay, sure. No, that was dramatic. I didn’t mean that. Shared language.
Noam
Shared land.
Mijal
But I mean like this, like for some people the term Zionism can feel like overly political or nationalistic. Let me put it aside for a second. Sometimes when I speak to people who aren’t part of, who aren’t Jewish, it’s hard for them to understand why I cared so much on October 7th. Why is it that so many of us were on the floor crying and feeling like somebody hurt us? Like the feeling was visceral, right? You cannot understand why Jews around the world cared.
After October 7th, if you only think of Judaism as a religion, you cannot understand why we move heaven and earth to be there for each other. And you also don’t understand that our history has taught us we have been through so much as Jews, and our most treasured resource has been the sense of family, that we have each other. And it doesn’t have to come with accusations of dual loyalty or all of that.
But this is who we are. This is part of what makes us who we are.
feel the exact same way. And I just want to kind of wrap up this part of the conversation or this conversation with a question, a statement out of question. I think one of the frustrations that I feel right now about this, who are you as a Jew and having people almost come in on their, their, their, their whore, their, their white horse, is that a phrase?
Sure.
Noam
I don’t know, I don’t mind that up. I’ll ask our producer, is that a phrase? That is a phrase. Okay. And they come in and they say, we’re here for you, we’re gonna protect you, we’re gonna fight anti-Semitism, we’re gonna fight, and then you say, okay, that’s amazing. Like you’re gonna allow Jewish people, but I think fighting anti-Semitism means that you allow Judaism and Jews to have full self-expression. So you allow for that. And when people say, it feels very much so like
People are just being dishonest when they say, I’m going to fight anti-Semitism. And you’re like, amazing? And then they say, because all Jews should be able to practice their religion. All Jews should be able to have faith. All Jews should be able to be fully expressed as religious people, as faithful people. You’re like, OK, great. That’s awesome, except you’re missing a whole other part of our identity, which is that we are a people, that we are a nation.
that were connected to a land, that were connected to people that live thousands of miles away. And if, you don’t mean that? You don’t mean that that’s what you’re here to defend?
I’m just to sharpen, are you saying that you find disingenuous or problematic expressions of solidarity and support that deny that for so many of us, a connection to Israel and to each other is part of Judaism?
Yeah, to deny that Israel being part of Jewish identity. And again, the word Zionism, we talk about that plenty, but it’s not about that. It’s the Jewish land, the Jewish people, the Jewish language, it’s part of us. And to not allow, and the Jewish state since 1948 is part of our identity, not every single person’s identity, but many of us. And so to say I want to fight.
Mijal
Most of us are currently serving.
Yeah, okay. to say like I’m gonna protect you and not that aspect is to me it’s fully gaslighting. It’s fully gaslighting and it’s also something that I think Jewish people should be thinking about. What does it mean to be connected? I just want to say one other idea. I’ve been quoting Chabad a lot today. The 32nd chapter of the Tanya, which I highly recommend.
But the tanya was book written by the altar Rebbe by Rabbi Shnerazalman of Liadi it talks about the reason it’s always this when I’m told like you know you if you’re gonna study the tanya you start with the 32nd chapter the 32nd chapter which by the way 32 is lave lamed bet heart and the whole idea of this 32nd chapter is that the Jews are one soul that we’re all connected to each other that’s why you and I care about the Jews in in the south
We’ve never who are at a music festival by the way, and we haven’t heard people talk about this I haven’t breaking Shabbat breaking the Jewish holidays to us matters zero Zero zero zero doesn’t even enter the consciousness because it doesn’t matter what they are doing doesn’t matter if they’re you know Following the Mosaic law not following rabbinic law doesn’t matter to us there. They are at part of our collective soul
Noam
We feel something to them. We feel something with them. And that’s what it is to be Jewish. It’s not just fighting anti-Semitism and the like. It’s to proactively feel for somebody else that you’ve never met, that you don’t know. It’s this idea that you’re on a WhatsApp group. It’s a WhatsApp community. And he puts something in the Jewish community from people across the world. Hey, I don’t know. I don’t have antibiotics. I need it. And some random person in a Jewish WhatsApp group would be like, hey, I’ll be at your house, you know, in the next week.
is what’s up.
Okay, by the way, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. It’s the reason, by the way, that, you know, someone who’s Israeli will come to a synagogue, will not have, and I’m not suggesting people do this, but I’ve experienced this, and they come to a synagogue and they ask for money, and they say, you know, I’m struggling with this. You first give the money, and then you do your due diligence after. You don’t do your due diligence and then give the money. You’re like, they need something. Is it official? Is it…credible I don’t know it’s just like i’m here i’m here to give you something you’re part of my people amIi crazy
I do my doodle.
Noam
Okay, that’s fair you’re allowed to do your due diligence, and that’s probably the responsible thing to do but in my heart I don’t do the due diligence is that fair? Okay
This has gone in weird places. Really? Yeah. Just kidding. Okay. No, I’m just trying to advocate for lack of fiduciary responsibility when it comes to keeping charge. Just kidding.
I don’t know. Okay.
Noam
You know what? It’s fine. So that’s what Judaism is. What Judaism is, is it has a religion, very much so. You can feel connected and you do feel connected, or I feel connected, regardless of people’s beliefs. And making sure that we Jewish people are understood internally matters a lot to me, and externally.
But before we start explaining to people externally what our story is all about, I think it’s critical that internally we provide an education to everyone in our day schools, in our Hebrew schools, in our congregational schools, in our synagogues, in our youth groups, in our podcasts to understand what Judaism really is all about, what it has been, and what the future is going look like. in our podcast.
Mijal
And I think for me now, part of what I’ve been thinking about so much, what it means to be an American Jew right now, and part of our responsibility in challenging times, is to refuse to give up on parts of our story, even if they’re inconvenient.