Mijal
Coming up, on Wondering Jews…
Noam
How did your father react to when you said that you felt so much shame?
Moran
He said something… and I’ll try not to get emotional. That he just wanted me to be happy.
Mijal
Hi everyone, welcome to Wandering Jews with Michal and Noam. I’m Mijal.
Noam
And I’m Noam and this podcast is our way of trying to unpack those really big questions being asked in the world today about Israel, about Judaism and about the Jewish experience.
Mijal
So we are underway with our exploration of family through the Jewish lens. As part of this series, we wanted to talk to Jews who are breaking the mold of what a traditional Jewish family looks like. Does that involve struggling against Jewish tradition, or can Jewish faith and identity support new ways of having a family and being in family?
Noam
There’s really no better person to talk to than Moran or Moran Atias, an actress and activist that got a lot of attention for a really, really personal TED talk she gave about family earlier this year.
She stars in an upcoming series called Joseph of Egypt, which I cannot wait to check out. Moran, welcome to Wondering Jews.
Moran
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Hi, Noam. Hi Mijal.
Mijal
Hi, Moran. We’re so excited. I mean, I’ll just say for me before we get to your bio and what you do, like as a woman of Moroccan background, being able to speak to another woman of Moroccan background, I don’t even know if I’ve done it before in like a podcast or even professionally. and it’s a real privilege to have learned about your story and to, you know, share your story with with our listeners. so so Moran, I know that you have such a huge, giant international following as an
Actress, as an activist, as a philanthropist, can you tell those listeners who perhaps don’t know your work a little bit about the breadth of what you do?
Moran
Well, well, first of all, you made me so moved and connected to you immediately because you just brought an image of my ancestors walking through the Atlas Mountain from Morocco to Israel. And that’s something that I’m carrying with me for for many years and I bring, I hope to bring to my work. and actually, you know, speaking of work, one of my most let’s say celebrated roles I play
I did was playing a f first lady of in fictional Arab country, which is on was on FX for three years, Laila al-Faid. And I brought a lot of my personal culture growing up in a Arabic background. And, you know, acting is my main, main passion and my main focus. I’m a storyteller. I am the granddaughter of a storyteller. My f my grandfather was a rabbi, and every Shabbat would he come back home from
the temple, I would be the first one to sit next to him and ask him what was the parasha of the week. But the passion for storytelling has started there when I was a little girl and continued with hosting. And I always found
Moran
the the curiosity to tell people’s story. Whether I’m hosting and interviewing people, what was their story and how do we communicate that to the world, or as an actress, how do I tell a woman’s story and bring that into, you know, the ensemble of the rest of the characters that are in the show or the film. And now I’m lucky enough to transition into, or more likely to expand into writing and creating my own stories. So
I I don’t know if it covered everything that I’ve been doing, but that’s in the professional route.
Noam
Moran just I wanna I wanna hear a bit about the show Joseph of Egypt and y you you you play a very specific role in the J in Joseph of Egypt. Maybe maybe someone that not everyone knows in the story.
Moran
Well, I didn’t even know about Bilah so apparently Bilah is one of the four wives, women that Jacob had and created the twelve tribes, you know, Joseph and his brothers. but it was it was something I really asked to to be part of. I really wanted to be a part of a biblical story. I’ve never been part of it, of that storytelling, and it just brought so much
you know, honor for me and how I was raised and to bring that to life was very, very special. And I got to play also with my sister and I hope to have that that more. Like working with my s working, we know we talk about family, like and the chance to work with my sister was was divine.
Noam
So cool. And yeah. What is it? And what is it what is it? What platform will it be on? Do you know? Okay, can’t wait.
Mijal
Wha when do we get to watch it?
Moran
I don’t know. Only God knows. Soon. It’s it’s gonna be on Amazon.
Mijal
huh.
Mijal
Amazing.
Mijal
Moran, can you tell us a bit about your origin story? We’re gonna speak a bit about this amazingly powerful TED Talk that you shared. and there you describe your upbringing in a Moroccan family in Haifa. So tell us a little bit what kind of yeah.
Moran
Haifa.
Noam
How do you say it? How do say it? How do you say it?
Moran
That’s how you say it. It’s just not, it sounds like you’re taking a anyway. Yeah, like Chara. Yeah, anyway, it’s not a it’s not a attractive sound, right? but yeah, I’m from Haifa. it’s a it’s it’s you know it’s one of it’s the third city, the largest, the the third largest largest city in the in Israel. But it’s not really a big city. It’s it’s just very boring and calm. That’s the truth.
Noam
Yeah.
Moran
And people love it for whatever reason, but I needed to get out of there. I mean, I had bigger dreams, I wanted to get out. To me, the world was, you know, just had so many opportunities. I wanted to learn all the languages, I wanted to meet other cultures. but you know, I always had this compass of being who I was and having a traditional, very family oriented background. You know, we we we couldn’t skip Shabbat.
No matter how hot it was, no matter how fun it was outside, we, you know, every Friday I would have Shabbat with my family, with certain food that even if it was a hundred degrees outside, my father would want his chameen, his like this really over, you know, like cooked food. It was heavy. And, you know, you want the watermelon by the beach. Yeah. And it’s heavy food and on a summer, you know, summer in Israel, but
Mijal
It’s the Sephardic Moroccan version of cholent for our listeners. I mean
Moran
That was his that’s how he was raised. So he wanted that tradition, my father. But then, you know, we made it a little bit more light and i expanded. But I cherish I cherish that upbringing so much because once you go out into the world, going back to that Shabbat table is is such a moment of calmness. It’s such a moment of coming back to yourself, to who you are.
And that just sets everything for for the rest of the week. And we have it on a regular basis. You know, we don’t we don’t need those new calendars that by the way, I buy all those calendars. Don’t get me wrong. I need I have every type of calendar, passion calendar, focus calendar, you know, goals calendar. I need to write things down. It just I process it differently.
Noam
Like the big ass calendar. You know what I’m talking about?
Moran
When it’s written, but if I just stop and remember to light the c candles on Shabbat, which I do with my daughter, I light the fire, I bless people that are in need, and then I stop and pause, and when I’m really lucky, I get to host people to my house and we eat, we break bread, we bless the wine, and it’s a moment for me to check in with my with my friends and family. And I love that.
Mijal
Yeah. It’s so interesting. Noam, when you and I spoke recently about family in Judaism, we immediately went to Shabbat also, Moran, the way that you just did. kind of like saying like it’s it’s kind of hard to conceptualize, you know, Judaism’s vision of a of a family without what Shabbat offers, which is real quality time and just presence with each other. which is really interesting. Moran, can you tell us a bit more about the you described you had a a TED talk in which you spoke about
Noam
Yes we did. It’s so interesting.
Mijal
your journey, not leaving your family, but maybe making choices that were different from your parents and w how you grew up. So just tell us a little bit about what, you know, give us some texture to that journey.
Moran
Yeah, so as I told you, I grew up in a very traditional household and that not only was traditionally religious, but also of a time that, you know, at least my mom, I don’t know about other women, but at least my mom, she didn’t really want more for herself. For her it was enough to just have a frid a full fridge and a family and she would work. It’s not like she didn’t have a job and realize herself in that way, but that was enough for her.
And something about that image of constantly cooking, cleaning, working, serving, serving, serving, and leaving herself out of it. when I was younger, really enraged me. And I looked at that and I said, that’s not gonna be my story. I’m not gonna be cooking, cleaning. I I I don’t want that. I just my brain was was generating so many ideas and so many thoughts of like what I wanted to do that.
sitting put in a house wasn’t wasn’t for me. and and I I I had to leave, you know. So that’s, you know, stepping out of the tradition, you know, and still I have my grandmother will tell me, like, you know, if you only cooked for him and you made the the kuba that he wanted. And I’m like, Grandma, it’s like six hours to make the freaking kuba and no, I don’t want to. You know, we could just order it
Mijal
Mm-hmm.
Mijal
Right. There’s something by the way about Middle Eastern food. There’s so many like finger food that is so time consuming and I think actually ends up like keeping women in the kitchen. I went to make so many cubes and things like that.
Moran
Yeah, and kuba is just one of like the thousand dishes that takes hours to make. But by the way, even if today you’re cooking, it takes time to go to all the different supermarkets because not everyone sells the same thing and then collect it, bring it, clean it, wash it, prepare it, cook it. By the time you’re serving the food, you’re exhausted. And and then what? What about that that woman? Like I can’t I remember my mom just being so exhausted by the end of the meal, and then we we we helped her to clear the table, but then she was exhausted.
And you know, for me, I just that really irritated me. I just I just didn’t like the idea that it was almost demanded. And not demanded, it wasn’t even asked of her. It was just like built in, ca assumed. So that part of it really kind of forced me to really lead l lead myself into a life of choices, make choices for myself and not being pulled into what
Noam
Assumed. It was assumed.
Moran
people were expecting me to maybe get married at a certain age, you know, all that, you know, cooking stuff.
And I had to leave the country to explore that. And thank God it turned out to be really exciting. In the TED Talk, I start there, but go through my journey of life and all these choices I made and all these things that people have celebrated me for. And I had an amazing career, both in Italy, which really
Moran
Crowned me and and and gave me so many opportunities, really believed in me and and I I’ve had a big career already at the age of nineteen, which was unheard of at the time. You know, we didn’t have celebrities or people on the art form from my country working and speaking a different language. I was fully, you know, Italian, speaking on primetime Italian TV shows.
Noam
Yeah, how did you do that? When I had listened to you on the TED talk, I was like thinking, how like you don’t go into how you like besides you’re like are you brilliant? Like in all seriousness, like how did you how do you how do you become fluent in another language and then also in the accent? How did you do that?
Moran
Well, you have to love it. You have to love it. Like, you know, I don’t love cooking, so I’m not great at it. I mean, I’m okay, whatever. But I love languages and I love portraying characters and I love, you know, studying the you know, why do they say this word or that? And Italian is such a beautiful language. It’s like you’re singing.
Noam
Could you speak Italian in an Italian accent still?
Moran
It’s not No, listen, like the thing is like my accent now is like not the Italian accent I had it back then. I mean, it’s it’s been 17 years. but I would grab a newspaper, truly what I did was this. two things. I would listen to old Italian music, which they sing so slowly and and pronounce every word.
Noam
Pretty good. Michal. Is that good? Was that good?
Mijal
Beautiful.
Noam
It’s pretty good.
No, I’m kidding. It’s great.
Moran
Prendi questa mano. Zingara. Any anybody can learn that, right? And so I would so I have a crazy vocabulary of like all the Italian classic songs. And people were amazed by that. And then I would grab every every day a huge newspaper, Corriera della Sera, and read it, not understand what it says. But slowly and surely, you know, words made sense and sentences started to make more sense. And I taught myself.
the language. Now, yeah, yeah. It’s like I feel like I need to do a course, a master class for Italian.
Mijal
Well, that’s pretty cool.
Noam
incredible.
No, that you should. You should. I take it.
Mijal
That would be really cool. but but and in the TED talk you you you you both spoke about kind of like your family and maybe choosing a different path. And then you you shared a very powerful and personal story about your journey and your choices to becoming a mom and to having a daughter. could you tell us a little bit about that? And you know, kind of like it was it was I I felt it was both a reflection of motherhood, of agency.
Moran
Yeah.
Mijal
And also of love for your own family that you came from.
Moran
Hmm. Wow, thank you for saying that. I think it’s both. I think what my TED was trying to to do is honor the tradition I came from, but honor also the change I want within the tradition. We don’t have to follow the same path that my parents had. You know, that was right for my mother. And by the way, she’s happy, she’s truly happy with the life she’s chose. You know, they’re still my parents are still married, they like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, you know, have this.
Incredible relationship that I I I wouldn’t survive it, but th that was good for her. But for me, I had to let go of so much of the expectation and really forgive myself to not follow that and create my own path, create my own tradition. I mean, don’t forget that we’re ingrained, little girls are ingrained to find not to be even find. For us it’s not an action. It’s a passive state of mind where we are chosen.
We need to be chosen by somebody else. We need to be saved by somebody else. Hopefully a prince, right? And how do we how are we gonna find that prince or how does he find us by if we drop a shoe? Come on. Like that’s just not like let me drop a shoe. Like it’s what what am I giving anybody? What advice is that? How am I teaching somebody, empowering somebody if he just needs to be like passive, drop a shoe and be chosen? And for me, doing the TED about that, making a choice.
I chose to be a mother on my own, which was not an easy choice. Not because it’s not what I wanted. That’s the difference. It’s because I was so afraid to to say something against or different that didn’t belong to the normal narrative that everybody grew up on. So coming from that shell of of years of of expectations and just saying no. And literally I remember I remember sitting in front of my father.
And I started to shake like a little girl. And I know my father loves me. He’s gonna support whatever I’m gonna tell him, but I was still shaking. Why would I be afraid of my own father? And it wasn’t fear, it’s just like, am I good enough? I heard everybody, everybody had an opinion about.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Moran
you know, whether I should marry this guy or that guy, or maybe have a a partner to raise a child. But deep down, Michal Ennom, I always knew that this was the right choice. And just to clarify it for the listeners and viewers, I chose to have a daughter on my own via sperm donor, which is a sentence that is sounds like science fiction from the family I came f I came from, you know? And
But I did it. I took myself out of shame and walked into a path of pr pride. And my daughter is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever created in my life. And I didn’t do it alone. It was for the help of God, for sure. I really felt the divine touch. I I I never felt so closer to God within when I was pregnant.
Never. I mean, just having a human being created in your body and you’re basically doing nothing. And and the organs and the heartbeat and the little fingers and the the sounds, it’s just like, wow, okay, God made me a woman. Like it was just such a great full circle for me from being angry about certain things that women have to do to loving being a woman. And
Allowing myself to choose what’s good for me and and I know also good for my daughter. Like I sometimes I look at my daughter and I like some of my relationship, they’re like married, they have other kids and blah, blah, blah. And you kind of like, I should have, could have. And I was like, no, I would have never had this girl. Leah, my daughter, is exactly what I needed. Is is is is the best gift of my life. So I I share this story so I can
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Moran
empower other people to choose themselves, really to overcome the shame, overcome the fear, overcome themselves, to choose what is good for them for their soul. And that only that’s only something that you know and you need to find.
Noam
Moran, can I c can I ask you a maybe a personal question here on this ’cause so so ’cause now now this is not like this is just simple stuff. But let the here’s what my reac Okay, a drink of water. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, right. if you’re gonna have arak, then we all then we all should have arak together. This is what I was wondering when you said this on you in your TED talk and what you just s shared with us now. I just how did your father
Mijal
It’s it’s
Moran
Because till till now it wasn’t personal.
Moran
Let me have a drink then. Okay. Let me have a little a.
Moran
Yes, no.
Noam
react to when you said that you felt so much shame. Like you you you I I presume that he saw your TED talk and might may even listen to this or I don’t know if he sh hears your content, but like is do it does he feel bad about the shame that you feel as a result of your engagement with him?
Moran
That’s such a good question. And so I didn’t invite my my parents to the TED talk. I didn’t invite anybody. I was so nervous. I was beyond nervous because it’s the first time I’m speaking in first person, not playing a character, it’s just me on the stage and with my my story, my my full story. I mean a lot of my story, not all of it. And I didn’t invite them. You know, I just needed to get it right. And then
before the TED, you know, because I’ve had conversations about it before. And he said something and I’ll try not to get emotional.
that he just wanted me to be happy. He wanted to say that, you know, he has a sister that didn’t have children, a religious sister, by the way, that in her path she was destined to have seven, eight children. She d she just didn’t have children. And he said to me,
You know, she’s still a saint. She’s still the woman I love, my sister I love. So it was okay if I didn’t choose that. Like if it was okay if I wouldn’t become a mother. That’s what he meant. It just came out wrong. And you know, I think our parents weren’t taught how to talk. They grew up in a household that they didn’t really talk about feelings. what it made for my relationship is much closer relationship to my father. I’ve learned how.
Mijal
Mm.
Moran
He was raised, he would get beaten by his own father. I didn’t know that till these conversations came up. And then I see like a really a child. Now I’m looking at my father as a young boy trying to be enough for his father and never feeling good enough. And I was like, my God, this has passed by generations. I gotta stop this.
And I’m stopping it with creating this baby. Now my daughter looks like him. It’s crazy. She looks like my father, and my father is a handsome man, so we’re happy. and she has this touch, you know, she’s just like physically it’s it’s just just like a cute little little moldy. And this wouldn’t have come if I didn’t break the silence, this generational cycle of silence that we don’t talk about certain things.
Mijal
Mm-hmm.
Mijal
You know, Moran, what struck me the most when I heard your TED talk, I mean and you described like the the independence, the growing awareness that you’re choosing a path that is different, more independent, making choices different than your family, the tension that you experience around choosing to become a mother and doing it again in a way that was very different. And then what was most surprising to me and I felt was really counter cultural actually.
was when you described afterwards, I’m not gonna call it a reunification because you didn’t say there was a rapture, but if I recall correctly, you named your daughter, her middle name is after your mom, and you described her relationship with your dad. And one of the things that I’ve observed, I don’t know how it is in Italy, for example, but at least in you know in New York, in like, you know, the l you know, the urban liberal bastion of the West, is that people tend to adopt binary thinking when it comes to family.
People either like if you’re like your parents and you have the same politics and you have the same ideas, then everything’s like good. Or if you have different politics or different big ideas, there’s actually all of these different like op-eds and like advice columns by therapists to tell
children to like break away from their parents. And that’s like a whole movement, actually, a cultural movement of distancing yourself from your family when you’re different. And what your what you represented, or what what really like I took from what you were saying is that you chose something that was pushing against both binaries. You don’t need to be exactly like your family and like your parents. And even within this different, you can have love, respect, you know, joy, laughter
Moran
Yeah.
Moran
Yeah.
Mijal
All of these things. so so I just wonder I think a lot of people are craving this middle path in a culture that is telling us we can’t choose it. So do you have any advice for what it means to inhabit this role?
Moran
Okay.
Right.
Moran
I think first of all it’s a beautiful you know, observation because I think we see it in today’s world, you know, this separation, this division that is really creating just more division and more separation and truly what we all need is connection. That’s just a human need, you know. and I think you look, I come from a big family. We’re not gonna have and we’re all Jews, so it’s like a thousand opinions on the table. And
I respect that. And by the way, if we didn’t have different opinions, what would I learn? The only way you grow is by trying something new and overcoming. And on the emotional part of it, I think what blocks people from doing that is their own feelings. So of course I was hurt at the moment, and sometimes my father or my uncle or my cousin.
can say something I disagree with politically or humanly or you know about even a movie they saw and I loved it and they hated it. I tend to not use words like hate, because you didn’t really hate the movie, you know, or you didn’t really you can’t hate somebody you don’t really know. How can you hate somebody you’ve never met? So I try to lower the flame and find ways to say, okay, well I think this
Moran
And then when you come with that tolerance and open heart and a softness, people will listen because they don’t feel they’re taught to. You know, even my daughter, it’s such a great lesson when you have a child. Yes, I can order her. Like, get in the car. And, you know, sometimes I’m like, get in the car. Get in the But that doesn’t help. That doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. But if I
communicate in a way she understands why it’s or like honey can you please help me? Mom is late. Can you please help me? Ca she she’ll get in the car. And sometimes when there’s a you know when we’re talking about this is when we have the time to do that. Okay. But if there’s a there’s an emergency or there’s danger, then the stakes are different, then I’m not gonna have that voice obviously. So you know, we we adapt. I remember, you know, even in Haiti,
Which was really, really a great teaching. I went there to volunteer and help rebuild a school that was c that collapsed. But then I found myself leading an evacuation mission to save critically injured patients on from from hospitals in Haiti to hospitals in the United States. And it wasn’t utterly sweet. It wasn’t like, please, please, please. It was just very practical and respectful to get things done. When you think about the mission.
Not yourself. Like, what is the higher purpose of this? I’m here to save people’s lives. I’m not important. I’m just a vessel. Let’s all work towards a target together. And if we don’t share the same value in the target, it’s going to be a little difficult or a lot difficult. So then you either part ways, but that’s the mission. If our mission in this world is to be in peace with one another, we all have to overcome certain fears, certain beliefs to really sit down and say, like, okay, you know what?
We think differently, but hey, how can we live respectfully? How can I respect your space and you respect mine? How can you respect how I pray and how you pray? There’s there’s space for all of it. I really believe that. It just has to come from a from a belief that we’re not better than one another. So
Mijal
Yeah, I
Mijal
Yeah. And as you said earlier, we need that diversity in relationship in order to grow. and and then we also need to have the tools to figure out how we’re telling our kids to get in the car and when to use what tone.
Noam
Yeah.
Moran
Yeah, and and and like sometimes you think and sometimes enough is enough. You know, I found myself sometimes getting to places where I’m like, I don’t think that person is really interested in listening. And then you have to save your own energy and say, like, you know what? That’s not the listener. He’s not ready yet for that message. That’s okay. Move on. He’s not, you know, they say when the teacher arrives when the student is ready.
Noam
Right.
Moran
And sometimes you also have to save your own energy and say, like, okay, I guess that person is not ready for that. Maybe he doesn’t really want to be in peace. Maybe he’s just saying that. Maybe he doesn’t want to become better. And that’s his journey or that’s her journey. So then you have to also like, okay, enough is enough. I gave my my w what I can share. And then I have to choose what’s right for me too. So that you grow like and and understanding like the word boundaries is a healthy, I really believe, even with my parents, like my mom could call.
Like every day and I love her. Thank God she calls me every day or I call her every day. And sometimes she will have an opinion about certain things. And I’m like, Mom, Mom, no, no, no. This one, no. Like we don’t talk money for me and my mom is not a good conversation. Like she just thinks differently. I’m like, Mom, you’re narrowing it down. You’re b you’re belittling me. You’re belittling me, Mom. But it’s my mom. I mean, like
Noam
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Noam
Right.
Mijal
Huh. No, but actually there’s something there’s like there’s real there’s real wisdom in knowing which conversations are not good to have with our mams. love you mom in case you’re listening. yeah.
Moran
Yeah.
Noam
That’s for short trip. Yes. Same wait, could we could we I I’ve I have one last question before we before we have to say see you later. I wanna you ended your TED talk, I wanna quote you. You said the following.
Life is a series of talks, the one you’ll have with a stranger, the one you’ll have with your family, the one you’ll have with your God. But the most important talk is the one you’ll have with yourself. So th my question to you as we wrap up right now is what is the talk you’re having with yourself these days and and how’s that conversation going?
Moran
Mm.
to me it’s really about purpose. So even coming here today is meaningful to me. It’s not just on the go. It’s not another Tuesday for me. It’s what can I offer the viewers and the listeners that can make them feel better about themselves? What message am I giving from my soul, from my knowledge, from my experience to the other? So that is really the conversation I had coming in here with my my friends and
Coming here. So I’m I’m not just I’m honoring this moment in time with you, with what you bring to this to this podcast, the work you’ve done. That’s to me like purpose. So it’s channeled. It’s it’s I really also talk with God in that sense. Like, okay, God, I’m here for a purpose. I’m here to represent my people. What message am I bringing to the world to make everybody feel better about themselves? So truly, and it may sound cliche, I don’t care.
So we can have a better world to live in, a better world for my daughter, for your daughter, for everyone’s daughters, you know, and sons, but daughters first. Sons and daughters for sure, but you know, it’s like a vocabulary that we need to also change, like daughters and sons and women and men, but
Noam
Yep. Both are important, sons and daughters.
Noam
nice, nice, nice, yes. Eve and Adam.
Moran
Correct. You see, learn fast. No, very good. What a great ending. You see, you already changed. Look, now you started this conversation as Adam and Eve, and now it’s Eve and Adam.
Noam
Yeah. I I’m a qu I’m a qu I’m I’m a qu I’m a yeah. That’s it. That’s it. Wrap it all up. Okay, there you go. Done. listen, the the teacher what do they say that the the the teacher can only start teaching when the student arrives, right? What is the is that the phrase, right? You just said it. So I just learned. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Moran
I don’t know who’s the teacher here. I mean I think we’re all students, but
Mijal
Moran, thank you so much for joining us. I feel like there’s just so many threads that we began to pull on and just thinking about family, about change, about traditions that we love, about grandparents who shape our stories today, about parents that drive us crazy but that we adore, about children that we bring into the world, and just questions around both shame and claiming wholeness. so thank you so much for for sharing with us and looking forward to to keep hearing more about your story.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Moran
Thank you so much.