Noam
Let’s say the the the fringes on the I guess you could call it the right in Israel start becoming more mainstream in Israeli society and they they do annex the West Bank or they do create settlements in Gaza. How does that impact your work?
Jason Isaacson
Negatively, in a word.
Noam
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam.
Mijal
I’m Mijal.
Noam
And I’m Noam, and today we are continuing our exploration of Jewish communities across the globe.
Mijal
So most of the episodes that we did in this series looked at particular Jewish communities, but the conversation we’re gonna have today is going to be a little bit broader, looking at just what’s happening around the globe.
Mijal
We are really excited because we have the perfect person for this conversation. We’re going to be speaking with Jason Isaacson, the chief policy and political affairs advisor for the AJC. He has been working for decades on normalizing relations between Israel and adult Middle Eastern countries, culminating in the Abraham Accords just a few years ago.
Noam
So many questions for him about notions of Jews and Israel in the Middle East. What progress has been made, what the challenges are, and his view on the state of anti Semitism around the world.
Mijal
Jason, welcome to Wandering Jews.
Jason Isaacson
Thanks. Very good to be here.
Mijal
Jason, as as we begin to discuss this, can you share with us a little bit more which are you know, with your work with AJC, which are the countries that you have been most involved in? Are are there special regions in the world? is it more like a global perspective? what what shapes the perspective that you’re bringing us today?
Jason Isaacson
well thanks for the question. look I’ve specialized in the Middle East and I would say also in India, but also had a a great deal to do with the establishment of AJC’s office in Brussels, our Transatlantic Institute, twenty two years ago.
with some of the other work that we’ve done in other parts of the world where I’ve played a role. but but most of the time that I’ve focused on one particular region, it’s been the Middle East. Middle East and North Africa, I should say, not just not just the Levant, not just the Gulf, but also Morocco, Tunisia, other places region.
Mijal
And for for those who might not be familiar with AJC’s work and with your work specifically, w when you say that you you’ve done a lot of work, let’s say in the Middle East, North Africa, describe a little bit, you know, what what are the ki what is the kind of work that that you lead?
Noam
Right. What is AJC?
Jason Isaacson
Well, I mean AJC is I mean I think if I had to put it in just a very few words, public policy voice of the American Jewish community, defending the communities and interests and values of the Jewish people around the world, representing Israel in certain places where Israel is not well understood.
Jason Isaacson
Ensuring Israel’s fair treatment in the international community and security. And all of that points to work that we’ve tried to do and that I’ve specifically been involved in in sort of introducing Israel to countries that don’t have a relationship with Israel, misunderstand Israel, and misunderstand often Jews.
or have perceptions that are sort of baked in from the propaganda that they’ve been fed, saturated with for decades. and so a lot of the work that I started doing in the nineties was traveling to countries where
Israel was seen as some kind of a an enemy or just a hostile force in the region or a colonizer in the region. Jews were regarded with suspicion or or or worse. And it was kind of breaking down misunderstandings and sort of demythologizing who the Jewish people are
Noam
And what what what are some misunderstandings about Israel and Jews that you have seen firsthand?
Jason Isaacson
well there is of course especially in recent years this whole kind of Greater Israel narrative that has taken hold and that has really been so toxic.
Jason Isaacson
Just drilling down on the message of Israel wanting to live in peace with its neighbors and not swallow its neighbors. And that when its neighbors stop firing missiles at Israel, Israel will work happily alongside those neighbors. It’s not interested in taking over its you know the entire Middle East from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is still a myth that circulates. and and also just the idea of the
Innovation culture in Israel and how that can contribute to the region is recognized in many parts of the Arab world, certainly in the leadership of many parts of the Arab world. And that runs counter to the myths that people maintain about Israel and that are still circulated by enemies of Israel.
Noam
I’ve seen this myth that the state of Israel, the flag itself, that the two lines refer to the Nile and the Euphrates. Have you heard of that one?
Jason Isaacson
Yeah, yeah, but you know, I mean if we start catalogs. I I I I mean I I I mean I’ve I’ve heard it from people who watch these myths. I haven’t necessarily heard it on the streets in you know, in in in Cairo or Abu Dhabi or Rabat.
Noam
Have you heard I’m just so interested in like your travels. Have you heard that has anyone ever said that to you directly?
Mijal
You know, ja I’m I’m really interested because when you were describing your work, you spoke about misconceptions and prejudice almost like in a past voice. and you spoke about new collaboration, like you know, in in like a present contemporary voice, w which seems to indicate that some of these misconceptions have been vanquished and there that there is greater understanding.
for someone like me, like I’m not an expert like you are, I’m not in the streets in Abu Dhabi or Egypt or any of these places. it I don’t I don’t have this sense of like optimism. It actually seems like things have gotten worse in the last three years. so I’m curious, like am I did I misunderstand you? Am I saying things in in in a wrong way?
Jason Isaacson
No, no, I think I think I think I think these are dual realities. I think that on the street among viewers of social media postings across the Arab world, there is still
This sort of vile depiction of Israel, a very negative depiction of Israel, and of Jews. I don’t want to whitewash that. Absolutely. At the leadership level, it’s a very different story. There might be criticism of Israeli policy, especially policies regarding treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank. I hear that a lot, especially in recent years.
certainly criticism of Israel’s reaction to October 7th. Very common. One hears that even from the most kind of forward-leaning people in the Arab world who want the relationship with Israel but don’t quite understand Israel’s policies in defending itself. Nevertheless, they recognize that Israel is in the neighborhood, they want to work with it and and they’ll benefit from it. At the street level, it’s not the same story, of course.
Mijal
You it’s interesting this dual reality that you’re describing in which the street or the mobs, you know, demonize Israel or the Jews and it’s like the symbol of evil, but the responsible leadership doesn’t view it that way and has to negotiate a very quiet collaboration. It seems to me the model is spreading, not to be too alarmist, but not only in Arab countries, but in different countries in the West. There’s been reports, for example, of
different Western democracies that have you know, where where where the politicians will say one thing in public, you know, anti Israel, but then negotiate under the table for different security deals or things like that. So that’s like an interesting phenomenon that we might just see more and more of in coming years.
Jason Isaacson
I’m afraid you’re right. and I mean we have a long history of being misunderstood and being targeted and and that hasn’t changed and sometimes you’re right, it’s it’s even in our own backyard that we are seeing some of the same phenomena that we experienced and survived in other parts of the world.
Noam
But the but there are many elements of the leadership, like you mentioned, having positive diplomatic relations with the Jews and with Israel. So specifically, you were on the White House lawn for the handshake between Arafat and Rabin, and then you long time later, but then you you were part of the Abraham Accords. And and I wanna
you to trace a line for us from that moment to what you do now, from the moment of Arafat and Rabin to to t to talking to us about the Abraham Accords, to the fact that that’s Sudan, UAE, Bahrain and Morocco that have formal diplomatic and Kazakhstan, sorry, Kazakhstan also. and that have I am I missing anyone? That have fo who
Jason Isaacson
Well well no, no you’re you’re you’re right. I mean from the Abraham Accords framework, that w that was that was Bahrain and the UAE. later that year
Noam
From the Abraham Records framework.
Jason Isaacson
But still often categorized, you know, in the Abraham Accords sort of basket is Morocco and and Sudan, which moved forward, made certain steps, but never quite completed the work because there was a coup and it got a little complicated. Azerbaijan, which has a long-term relationship with Israel, and Kazakhstan, which also has a long-term diplomatic relationship with Israel, in recent months have been kind of grouped in with the Abraham Accords
Noam
You just told me more about the the Abraham Accords than I think I r I realized. I I did not realize that that Morocco and Sudan
Aren’t really like what tell me say more about that.
Jason Isaacson
Well well it’s just i the the term Abraham Accords really was invented for the UAE and Bahrain. and and that was the the the document that was signed on the White House lawn in September of two thousand.
and it was there was negoti there were negotiations that were taking place in that same period with Morocco and with Sudan, and those were concluded later that year, I think in December or maybe even in very early January, b just before the end of the first Trump administration.
But but Morocco, I should also point out in the nineties had a lower level diplomatic relationship with Israel. So i when when Israel and Morocco concluded their negotiations under the Trump administration’s mandate at the end of twenty twenty, we were talking about kind of a restoring or or
Jason Isaacson
reestablishment of relations between Israel and Morocco rather than a new relationship between Israel and Morocco.
Noam
So so basically I guess for my purposes, it’s okay for me to root for Morocco in the World Cup.
Jason Isaacson
it is certainly okay and and if I didn’t do that
Mijal
Depends who they’re playing against. Just just saying,
Noam
Okay. Okay. I just wanna I need to know. They were. They were. Wait, Michal, you’re saying you you don’t like when they played at Argentina, you’re still rooting for Argentina, is what you’re saying. Right.
Jason Isaacson
They were by the way, they were amazing in the World Cup and they they they they
Mijal
W well of course. But but also I will say Morocco is also unusual. Morocco and Turkey, well Iran to some extent, but were some of the only Muslim majority countries that have a Jewish community in it. So Morocco has still a Jewish community in it. So that also like shapes I think a bit the
Jason Isaacson
And there are two countries that have great athletes. And especially the the the the women’s volleyball team from Turkey never bet against
Mijal
Right.
Mijal
We we want, we want.
Jason Isaacson
Mm-hmm.
Noam
W Mi Michal, I wanna ask, you know, this is like again, s it’s really interesting. I I there’s so many things I wanna just continue pulling threads on. One of them is w something you said earlier about, you know, not you you could be you in in a country, but you if you are overtly something, you know, if you’re overtly Jewish, I was wondering like if you were a Kipa or a star of David in a certain areas, if that in in these different countries is that okay? Is that kosher to you? Michal, you’re saying no? You don’t think so?
Jason Isaacson
I mean my answer is in Morocco, in the UAE, in many of these countries actually, certainly in Azerbaijan, but we’re not talking about Azerbaijan right now, I I see no issue whatsoever. but for the work that I do, I think the primary identity that I lead with, they understand exactly
what I represent, who I represent. but I lead with with the fact that we’re from America. And and their relationship with America is extremely important to them. And and and they will also recognize I’m be I’m generalizing here, you know probably exaggerating in the course of that, but please understand. if if an Arab country that is contemplating some kind of a relationship with Israel
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Jason Isaacson
has some internal opposition to that, for a whole range of reasons that we’ve discussed. but believes that by moving forward toward Israel, in a either a quiet way or in a more public way, they will gain
support in the United States. They will have allies in the United States, perhaps before the US Congress, perhaps in the admi in the US administration, perhaps in the business community or in the think tank world. that’s that’s a factor that will play into their thinking about how to how to move forward.
Mijal
Could could I ask a question that concerns me in what you’re saying? Because part of what you’re depicting is how in some Arab and Middle Eastern countries, the path towards greater normalization with Israel really goes through America and the West. So what what what is your thinking, you know, strategically as Israel loses allies in the West and perhaps becomes much more isolated in America itself?
How how i i does this close the door on greater normalization in the Middle East as well?
Jason Isaacson
Profound question. and I and and let’s let’s let’s work on that. clearly the United States has opened the door for Israel in very significant ways and has made possible some of the advances Abraham Accords would not have happened without American leadership. and American deal making. But it was also a recognition, and this is something that AJC has been pressing for decades in countries across the Arab world, in the Muslim world, but especially the Arab world, that if
If what you say about your support for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian cause, is genuine. You want to help the Palestinians achieve rights, achieve autonomy, achieve their own state, if that can be accomplished, you are not doing that by isolating Israel, by not engaging Israel. You can much more effectively do that by engaging Israel. And then when the Palestinians and the Israelis are sitting at a negotiating table, you are
Jason Isaacson
Able to have some influence on the Israeli side of the table, not only on the Palestinian side. And this is something that I finally heard kind of echoed back from the then foreign minister of of Oman in a conference in Bahrain six, seven years ago, eight years ago, where where he was basically saying the same thing that frankly Israel is a part of the neighborhood. We c we have to recognize that. And that isolating Israel doesn’t make sense. And so it
is definitely the US role that helped push forward the Abraham Accords agreements and and I’m counting on the US to continue to play that role, regardless of whether there is sometimes criticism of Israeli policy by this or that administration. but it is also in the self interest
the sort of the regional self interest of Arab states to engage Israel and part of it is what they’ll what what benefits they will derive for their own societies and part of it also is a recognition and again we keep making this point in Arab capitals recognition that they will have more influence on the course of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, on advancing rights for the Palestinians if they engage Israel.
Noam
I wanna just riff off of Mijal’s question about America and then go to the Israeli side of things. Let let’s say, you know, the Israeli side of things, let’s say there is an expansionism. Let’s s let’s let’s say that does happen. Let’s say the the the fringes on the I guess you could call it the right in Israel start becoming more mainstream in Israeli society and they they do annex the West Bank or they do create settlements in Gaza. How does that impact your work?
Jason Isaacson
Negatively, in a word. Clearly.
Mijal
Ha.
Sorry that sorry that I’m laughing. It’s just it’s a sad it’s a sad laughter. Shippish laughter.
Jason Isaacson
No, it’s I understand. it would it would be politically unwise for Israel to take that course. Israel will still be an important power and player in the neighborhood and recognized as such and
I believe that for a lot of reasons Israel and Egypt and Jordan will continue to have relations, economic relations, but it will chill the possibility of advancing the circle of widening the circle of Arab Israeli peace. there is recognition of the corruptness and the fecklessness of Palestinian leadership, but a genuine support for Palestinian rights that one hears even from the most kind of Israel.
favoring leaders in the Arab world and you can’t you can’t just disregard that. I’ve heard from people who I respect deeply and and and and have long had a relationship with in Israel who believe that the possibility of a Palestinian state has vanished and and and is not in the best interest of Israel and that Israel has to find a way to live with that and to sell that to the region.
But I don’t know how that can be done.
Jason Isaacson
And and if that is the course that Israel takes, that it completely blots out the possibility of of advancing kind of normal rights and treatment of of of its Palestinian neighbors, it it will make it harder and harder to to advance Arab Israeli peace, it will make it harder and harder to defend Israel’s legitimacy and interests in the international community. We will we will do what we have to do, we will do what we can. And
And we will talk about the the fact that Jews are native to that land and we’re indigenous people and and and we have a right to a state as any other peoples have a right to a state. and and and the contributions that Israel can continue to make to regional security and stability. But it will be a harder
a harder task for us to kind of defend Israel as a as as an embodiment of the values that that we share in America and that we share in Western democracies.
Noam
But so would you con here’s my harder question. If if if is your advocacy of Israel independent of Israel’s behavior, therefore? Meaning w would you st would I I’m I’m playing up a scenario just to understand what you’re trying to actually accomplish in these countries. If if Israel does go with either of those options, are you still making the case that Arab countries should continue to
normalize their relations with with Israel regardless of
Jason Isaacson
Well sure. Look no, I mean AJC will never abandon the defense of Israel. Israel
Noam
No matter what.
Jason Isaacson
Well, it’s no matter what, Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. We have a right to be there. we have a right to defend ourselves. the Jewish people have a right to be there, Jewish people have a right to defend ourselves. and and it will be in everyone’s interest to have a relationship with that country, which is a contributor in so many ways to security and prosperity, and can continue to do so in partnership with these countries. but it will just be an easier sell if Israel finds some way of recognizing the legitimate.
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Jason Isaacson
rights of their Palestinian neighbors, who also lived there for centuries.
Mijal
You know, this is bringing me back to what was the speech that Daniel gave? Was it last year, this year about Israel being Sparta? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like that’s like it’s a scary scenario and it’s not one that is out of the question, you know, in which Israel both the internal psychological mindset of Israelis and also the way that it is viewed, it’s like a besieged country that is not making friends and that is yeah.
Noam
Sparta.
Jason Isaacson
And and and you can and you can’t deny the fact that Israel has been targeted again and again relentlessly, and there are there are whole industries that have been created to to target Israel. and and millions of people across the Arab and Muslim world and not just the Arab and Muslim world, who are out to get Israel. There’s no question about that. But Israel is
Mijal
I have to get Israel and Jews. Israel is the like Sachs would say, it’s like the
Jason Isaacson
Again, Israel and out get Jews. And what do we lead with? We lead with defending ourselves and we also lead with the contributions that we make to s regional security and public health and water resource management and and a whole range of technologies that can help advance the human condition. and and and and we hope that that kind of positive message, that affirmative message, will offset the long history of negative messages that that
Mijal
Yeah.
Jason Isaacson
Surround the Jewish people and surround the state of Israel.
Noam
Mijal, I wanna I wanna in our last ten minutes just go directly to like the we have like a list of things that we wanna go to that we wanna hear directly from you to to hear from you, Jason, about like specific, specif specific, specific questions about global anti Semitism. So we’re gonna be quick. We’re kind of kind of lightning round this, but Mijal, I’ll go first and you go that and then we’ll go from there. Can you give us an example or two of things that are worrying you?
Mijal
Yeah.
Noam
in the story of global anti Semitism. One example or t or two of things that are worrying you.
Jason Isaacson
one example or two. look, I I I I worry a lot about what our students are s are experiencing on college campuses. what they’re hearing
when they join a Jewish student association, when they join Hillel, and when they walk out of a a Shabbat dinner and are confronted with people holding signs that say, you know, death to Israel or from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free. and just this misunderstanding of Israel and misunderstanding of Jews and the relationship of the Jewish people to our homeland. that worries me and it’s and it’s it’s i I I I hope that this coming academic year we’ll see
diminution of that, I hope with the work that AJC has done, and not only our organization, but others as well, in working with universities and also high schools and frankly middle schools, administrators and faculty and trustees and parents to make sure that different messages are sent and allowed and behavior is tolerated or not tolerated. I hope that that will have some impact. But that that worries me. And abroad, of course, the fact that that
Jewish communities are are targeted, that there is, you know, arson and and and and attacks that take place in the UK and in Canada and Australia, a horrible Bandi massacre, my God. So that kind of violence against against Jews and against Jewish institutions worries me a great deal. And we need a lot more.
concerted effort on the part of organ of of of of governments at many levels national local regional and other institutions and media institutions to combat that and we did a lot more contribution a lot more help
Jason Isaacson
from social media platforms. And AJC has been working with social media platforms to reintroduce moderate content moderation and filtering in ways that have sometimes been relaxed in recent years that has to be really rigorously reintroduced. And we need help from from from governments at every level and other institutions. And we’ve gotten a lot and we have made real progress, but there’s a lot more work to be done. So I’m I’m worried on many levels, but I think that’s sort of the national condition, natural condition of our people, isn’t it?
Noam
Mm-hmm.
Mijal
Hm. Well let me let me go to the last thing you said. w are there some governments out there in the world that you can point to and say they are doing this is like a government that’s that’s doing a a good concerted effort to try to combat anti Semitism and we can all learn from it.
Jason Isaacson
look, I think the United States. under frankly, both the Biden administration and the Trump administration have have made enormous progress in this. the adoption of a national strategy in the Biden administration, the efforts by the Trump administration in in a number of sectors have been very important. at there are other other institutions. There are sports institutions, there are media institutions that have made real progress. I I would also say frankly
Noam
What do you mean by that? What what what’s a sports institution? What do you mean by that?
Jason Isaacson
to gather teams together and talk about the necessity of combating anti Semitism.
sports institutions, sports sports teams that have enormous cultural influence can make a real difference and we’ve seen owners of sports franchises gather their teams together and talk about these issues and sometimes we’ve played HSC has played a role in that as well. but also overseas I’ve been impressed frequently by actions of the European Union.
Katarina von Schnorbein, the coordinator for combating anti-Semitism for the European Union, has been relentless and and and and enormously committed to working with countries across Europe to get their governments to adopt national strategies, to appoint national coordinators, to actually take action against anti-Semitism, to enforce various rules, to adopt the working definition of anti-Semitism. All of these actions have taken place, and and AJC has strongly contributed to that
the world. So it’s it’s an ongoing challenge. we’re very committed to it. We do have allies.
Noam
Along the lines of allies, give me an example or two of things that are giving you hope.
Jason Isaacson
I I am so encouraged, and this is gonna sound like an advertisement for the American Jewish Committee. I hope you’ll forgive me for doing that. but thank you. I am really inspired by the people who have come to work for AJC, young or not so young people who are leaving other professions or are choosing as their profession to advance the work of an organization that’s committed to protecting the Jewish people and and advancing Israel’s place in the world.
Noam
Forgiven.
Jason Isaacson
World. I am honored to work side by side with people in the Center for a New Middle East, which HAC created two years ago to advance our work in expanding the circle of Arab Israeli peace, to my colleagues who work on our Center for Education Advocacy, or who work in our interreligious affairs programs to develop closer relations between Muslims and Jews and Catholics and Jews and Protestants and Jews and Hindus and Jews, the work of my colleagues in fifteen international offices.
Who come to work every day to do what they can, what we all can, to defend the Jewish people and to assure Israel’s fair treatment in the international community. So that’s a source of hope for me.
Mijal
That’s beautiful.
Noam
All right, Mijal, I’m gonna ask our last question then. Here’s my last question. We are constantly asking whether things are worse here or more challenging here in the United States or relatively okay compared to other places. In under sixty seconds, actually have one more question after this. In under sixty seconds, what’s your answer to that?
Jason Isaacson
I am worried about polarization in American society and the level of hate in American society.
That worries me a great deal. am I more worried about my country than I am about other parts of the world? I I really I I have a a kind of a general sense of pretty significant worry about everything. so I am worried about America, I am worried about peace in the Middle East, I’m worried about a way to end the war in Iran that doesn’t leave Iran with a pathway to a nuclear weapon and to controlling
Noam
Ha ha ha.
Jason Isaacson
the region through its proxies or threatening the region through its proxies, including Israel. Threatening Israel through its proxies. And also repressing, continuing to repress the Iranian people. So I’m worried about that. I’m worried about here. I’m worried about Ukraine. I’m worried about the
the possibility that Russian aggression will ultimately be rewarded and the necessity of the United States standing with their European allies in defense of Ukraine against Russian aggression. and and and worried about assaults on on on religious freedom around the world and on on human rights around the world. So there’s a lot to worry about. partners
Noam
I should not have asked a policy guy about what they’re worried about. That was a mistake on my part. That was a mistake. But but
Mijal
Yeah.
Jason Isaacson
And I went on too long though. I’m sorry about that.
Mijal
I like the hope question more, you know. Yeah. Go back to hope. Go back to hope. No, but could I could I actually say something? I I just think, you know, when we were talking about the the seeing the handshake, you know, in nineteen ninety-three, and and you mentioned your excitement there, and part of me was excited looking backwards, and part of me was sad because of how that ended. and then I th but then like we asked you about the Abraham Accords and I was thinking like in nineteen ninety three you could never have predicted either
Noam
No Okay, fine, fine. Speaking speaking of spe speaking of speaking of hope. Last, last, last yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Mijal
the the low places that the Oslo Accords would end in, or the heights of the Abraham Accords. so to me there’s something there that there there there’s there’s it’s a long journey and that’s who we are as Jews. and there’s ups and there’s downs. what’s I don’t even know what that song is. that just came to my head. sorry, ignore me. there there’s ups and downs and and I just
Jason Isaacson
It’s a long journey.
Jason Isaacson
Yeah.
Noam
I want to know the song.
Mijal
Okay. but we all keep working and moving forward.
Noam
So so so twenty thirty twenty thirty give us the prediction. Saudis, Israel, normalization, yes or no?
Jason Isaacson
I think I just take I take y again, y y I can’t answer that in a in in a in a sentence or or I I can, but it’s gonna be a very long sentence without a lot of punctuation. I just take very seriously what I hear from Saudi officials and what has been said publicly and what’s been said privately, that it’s a question of when, not if.
Noam
Or is the journey longer?
Noam
Okay.
Jason Isaacson
And we will continue to work for work with our friends across the region to advance Israel’s normalization, Israel’s integration of the region, ’cause it’s in the best interest of that region, of all the countries of the region.
Noam
Amazing.
Jason, thank you so much for joining us.
Mijal
Thank you so much.
Jason Isaacson
Thank you, Mijal. Noam, it’s great being with you.
Noam
Thank you.
Mijal
Thank you.