Noam
Hey everyone, welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam. I’m Noam.
Mijal
And I’m Mijal and this podcast is our way of trying to unpack those really big questions being asked in the world today about Israel, about Judaism, about the Jewish experience.
Noam
Today we are responding to comments from listeners. This is our mailbag episode, which I love. I love a good mailbag. But first, Mijal, welcome back. my gosh. Like, I really miss my chavruta. I really miss my my sparring, not sparring partner, my learning partner, my, are we sparring partners? Are we sparring partners? That’s okay. But I really like, like, like I’ve been.
Mijal
Thank you. It’s been a while now.
Mijal
You can say sparring partner. No, it’s okay. Yeah, yeah. But
Noam
Guests are great, love having the guests on and they’ve been awesome, like, missed our conversation, so it’s awesome to have you back.
Mijal
Thank you. Thank you. And I loved watching the guest episodes. I am a bit postpartum, so I’m going to forget every single name. But you had food, cooking, comedy, all kinds of things.
Noam
I was was kind of thinking like where would Mijal if Mijal was on this where would Michal be like Noam you are like you’re misbehaving don’t say that I see it differently which one Which one the rug-a-lug conversation yes That’s where you see things differently fair enough, okay Am I allowed to say the name of your like why you’ve been gone and the name of your baby or no? Okay, so tell us how your baby was named first of all
Mijal
The rugelach conversation. The rugelach conversation. Rugelach, am I saying it right? The rag.
Mijal
Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Yeah, so thank God. had a baby at the end of March and we named him Joseph Ariel. We’re still trying to figure out what we’re calling him. So I don’t know if you have this now. I’m like, you have the name, but you don’t know yet what you’re calling the baby. Do you have this or? Okay.
Noam
course. Yeah, I mean, but we have, but like we go with like nicknames right away. Like my last child’s name is Sarit. We call her last, the last, because she is absolutely the last, but we call her Za. She goes by Za. She’s Za. But you, Yosef, you’re talking about like Joey. You’re gonna call him Joey?
Mijal
I don’t know, we have, so some people in my family, my husband.
Noam
That’s a great, a classic name, that’s a cool name, Joey Setton. Right?
Mijal
It’s very classic name. So my husband and my son are calling him Baby Joe. My daughter and I are calling him Baby Seth. Which is, I see you prefer Joey, him?
Noam
you
I love it.
Noam
Okay.
I think it’s cool. I’ve always wanted to be friends with people like a Joey Seton. It’s such a cool name.
Mijal
Like a Jice, it’s a Syrian name, like from Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know. like both, I’m playing with them. I have this thing that I need names to feel natural, like in English and in Hebrew. So I always feel caught on that. But everything is good, he’s beautiful. We named him after my father, as you might know in Sephardi communities, we name after…
Noam
Right.
Mijal
our parents and after living relatives. So it was very special for me to name after my dad. And his middle name Ariel, for me it’s like a post October 7th name. There’s a lot of meaning there, but I’ll just mention that it was in memory of Ariel Bibas and also in, I would say, in admiration of the spirit of the Jewish people.
There’s been a lot of conversations in Israel and here in America about being a nation of lions and different verses, like a nation like a lion will rise. And Ariel means lion of God. So to us it just represents the beautiful, you know, our beautiful people.
Noam
That’s amazing, that’s beautiful. I remember when I was texting you, guessing what the names might be, and you’re like, no, I’m Sephardic. This is not a comment. It’s gotta be my, right.
Mijal
Yeah. Yeah, not also far, not also far I think just to this exactly, but in our community, I’m like, yeah, it’s my dad’s name. No surprises. Everybody gets you like gifts with the name inscribed before like the birth, know, the birth, Mila. So it’s like, yeah.
Noam
Exactly.
Noam
wow.
And listen, even though you mistakenly just called it a bris, the future is…
Mijal
I was actually trying to say it in case you wouldn’t know what a Brit… Yeah.
Noam
Oh, you in case I don’t know what a brief Milan might be. I appreciate that. That’s good. It’s always good to translate. So a circumcision for everyone who doesn’t know. And if you and if and if you don’t know, this is might be inner circle talk right now. The future is Sephardic. So we so we all right.
Mijal
Yeah, yeah, what do you mean by that, Noam?
Noam
Well, I think you’re the one who has something to say about that topic.
Mijal
I did write an article that has gotten a lot of comments and feedback about the future of Sephardic. We can put it in the show notes or we can talk about it one day. But yeah, it is Sephardic maybe. If we so will it.
Noam
Right? Okay. An addendum, maybe. The future is Sephardic. So it should be the future is Sephardic food. That’s what I would subscribe to.
Mijal
Okay, no, that is a little bit like, you know like exoticizing? I’m mixing it up, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like, you’re like colorful, you have good food.
Noam
Did I just do that? do that? All right, so to all my friends listening, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. See, this is why we Michal back. Puts me in my place. I misbehaved yet again. Not just, okay, exactly. All right, so here is what I want to talk to you about, our mailbag. Where we ended off was our series on denominations. It was fun and I liked it a lot and I don’t care what I like. Well, I guess it matters what I like.
Mijal
It’s not just like a lach and lach machine.
Mijal
That was fun, by the way.
Noam
But it really led to a lot of conversations on social and Instagram, which is interesting to see people’s conversations on that, on emails to us asking a lot of questions. Just when I’d see people and people would, one of my favorite moments is when I would bump into someone and they’d say, love the Denomination series or had a lot of questions on the Denomination series. And then they see me about to correct them. They’re like, nope, not Denomination, it’s movements, movements. So I like that there’s this inner talk going on right now.
Inner Circle talk. about you? Anything stand out for you?
Mijal
Yeah, and just to remind us, we also did this because we got requests from folks to try to… Yeah, I really enjoyed people’s comments, whether it’s like on YouTube or Instagram or on you know, Spotify. I also, I don’t know if you had this, Noam, but I enjoy finding topics of conversation that people want to talk about that is not like anti-Semitism and Israel only. So this was actually, it was fun.
Noam
Correct. Right.
Noam
Mm-hmm. Hell yeah, come on.
Well, that’s what we’re, well, I mean, Michal, that’s what we’re trying to do here at Wondering Jews. Of course, anti-Semitism and Israel are part of Jewish identity, but there’s so much more than Jewish identity. There’s so much more to Jewish identity than those topics. They’re part, they’re critical and whatever. But let’s go on to, can we read some of the emails and some of the comments? Okay, so that’s what we’re gonna do this mailbag. In this mailbag, we will read from you.
Noam
Important note, we’ve actually truncated some of your letters and your comments for the sake of runtime, but none of the intention has been changed at all. And sometimes we change it from like the Jewish term to like the general term. So just hope you’re cool with that.
So here’s the first one.
The first one is from Phil in response to our episode on Reform Judaism. So remember we did four episodes on denominations or movements, maybe more. We did one on modern orthodoxy and the movements in general, one on conservative, one on reform, one on non-denominational. And then we also did one on Reconstructionist Judaism. So we did five. Yeah, more exactly, more about the history of the founder of Reconstructionist Judaism. And we also did…
Mijal
more like more the high cap plan and then the birth of yeah
Noam
we did a repeat, we did one on Chabad, because people were like, hey, what about Chabad? Chabad’s kind of important. So we had our episode on that as well, which was a great re-release. So this was, the Reform Judaism one got a lot of people talking. So Phil writes the following. He said, you did something I see a lot, which is overemphasize the Pittsburgh platform’s impact on Reform Judaism.
By circa 1937 with the end of the wave of immigration, the rise of the Nazis and the rise of the Yishuv, along with the integration of non-German American Jews into the Reform Revenant, the Reform Revenant passed the Columbus Platform, which reverses much of Pittsburgh, including a proto-Zionist plank recognizing Palestine as a place of refuge.
Noam
I guess the radical nature of Pittsburgh is what gives it its primacy in the American Jewish mind. So, Michal, what is our response to this?
Mijal
Well, let’s just first name what I think Phil is saying. I think Phil is saying many people focus on this very radical. What year was the Pittsburgh platform? Okay. Yeah, so a lot of folks like focus on that as a way to talk about reforms, like rupture from tradition. And he’s saying, but history is more nuanced and not that many decades after that a lot of that was reversed. So I think he was.
Noam
I think 1885, but anyone could correct me on that if I got that wrong.
Mijal
almost like paying attention to the over-emphasis of the rapture, which I think is right, actually. I think Phil has a good point in noting this. Yeah, how do you feel about that? Well, you’re a history buff also, so I figured you would.
Noam
Yeah. Yeah.
Noam
I have a lot of thoughts on this. So I don’t know if I’m a history buff, people like to call me that, but I’m not. I like education. Anyway, I don’t know why just, I know, let’s focus on this focus, focus, focus on. So let me read to you from the Pittsburgh platform for a second. This is what it says. It says, expect neither a return to Palestine, Israel, the land of Israel.
Mijal
question was about the Pittsburgh.
Noam
nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state. So that is a big statement to pay attention to, first of all, it’s like a big statement. But let me counter that. Let me give voice to what Phil is saying. It’s also true that the vast majority of European Orthodox Jews were also opposed to Zionism for a very long time. The vast majority of Orthodox Jewish rabbinic leaders were opposed to it. So I think that it’s an interesting point to say that
What? Yes, see, making a face.
Mijal
Yeah, I’m confused by that because, and I might know less history than you here, so please help me understand, I would assume that part of what the early reform movement was doing was not only rejecting political Zionism, but also rejecting it as like a religious yearning thing, right? Which like Orthodox Jews, you know.
Noam
Well, yeah, yeah, it’s in some ways it was like the horseshoe theory in effect, meaning like the different extremes of Judaism were rejecting Zionism for different reasons. For the reform, the reason was Jews are not a people, they are a religion. And that was part of assimilating into American culture and saying, we’re like, it’s kind of like what happened with the French Jews in the early 19th century. Hey, we’re part of you, we have a faith, like we’re just like, we’re Jews of, we’re.
We’re people of the Mosaic persuasion. That’s what we are. But we’re Frenchmen of the Mosaic persuasion. We’re American of the Mosaic persuasion. And on the other side, the rejection of Zionism from the Orthodox world was they felt it had an anti-religious nature to it. that, ironically from the other side. So the Chabad rabbis initially were opposed to it, the Babic rabbis, the Hasidic sects were also opposed to it initially. This changed over time.
The briskers, the Orthodox rabbinic leadership were also opposed to it in many ways. So I’m just making the statement that where I’m agreeing with Phil’s like, hey, they’re making an overstatement about the reform and it changed and it did change its tune. It did. One of the things that they said is the following 50 years later, Judaism is a soul of which Israel is the body. In the rehabilitation of Palestine, the land hallowed by memories and hopes, we behold the promise of renewed life for many of our brethren.
We affirm the obligation of all Jewry to aid in its upbuilding as a Jewish homeland by endeavoring to make it not only a haven of refuge for the oppressed, but also a center of Jewish culture and spiritual life. So basically what they ended up doing is they took this Herzlian approach to Zionism, which is, hey, this is a refuge, we’re gonna save Jews, and this Akhada Am approach to Zionism, which is, hey, this is gonna be a spiritual center, and it did change over time. Where I, so I’m gonna acknowledge Phil’s point.
So that’s acknowledging the change, just like in Orthodox Judaism, there was a change. But where I’m going to say, hey, Phil, think here’s why people do talk about this, is I pulled up some statistics. And if you look at the statistics, you’ll see that from Pew, 82 % of Orthodox, 78 % of conservative, and 58 % of Reform Jews have an emotional attachment to Israel, to Pew. Another study, God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people, Orthodox 84%, 54 % conservative.
Noam
35 % reform. I’ll give another example. Caring about Israel is essential to what being Jewish means. 67 % conservative, 53 % orthodox, 49 % reform. Here’s my point. My point is there does seem to be a question mark about Zionism within the reform movement in a different way than exists in conservative and orthodox Judaism.
Mijal
I think you’re reminding us that the way we think about the past and about history is not only you know facts that happened But whatever we are living through right now might make us pay more attention to something that happened in the past If it feels like it’s still alive Yeah
Noam
Yeah, absolutely.
But I love the question from Phil. It’s such a fair question and I hope we gave at least a take on it.
Mijal
Yeah, okay, great. So there’s one more comment by Phenemj, someone called Phenemj, on a reform episode. So, oh sorry, fine, MJ. It’s English, English is third language. Just kidding.
Noam
What’s the name?
Fine MJ. That’s where it’s from.
It’s a comment on Instagram, it’s fair. stop, there’s no way to know that. That’s such a boastful comment. Do you know what my second and third languages sound like? Do you know what my second and third languages sound like?
Mijal
We could do this in your second and third language now. I would like this explanation of movements to include intermarriage rates. Parenthesis, the true test of continuity, comma conversion rates and conversion type of the intermarried partners and patrilineal descent in my.
honest opinion, what truly matters is Jewish continuity and being Jewish has become a competing identity and for many not a very desirable one these days. So I think what they are saying is that
is that when we talk about denominations of movements, we shouldn’t only focus on ideas and theories, but really, and we spoke to leaders, so it makes sense, but really look at sociology. What ends up happening with each movement? And they are pointing out particularly around intermarriage conversion. I would also say retention in denominations. So there are questions that ask, what you raise in this denomination, did you switch? So what do you think about this comment?
Noam
I think a lot about this comment. I think that the mistake is to view the battle as intermarriage. I believe the battle is not intermarriage. The battle is not continuity. I don’t think it should be that. I think the battle should be illiteracy. I think the battle should be indifference.
Noam
I don’t think you battle a symptom. I think you battle a problem. And the problem is that Jewish people should we should make Judaism compelling and interesting. And instead of trying to prevent intermarriage and prevent the Jewish tradition, we should we should be thinking a lot more about creation, generation, interesting ideas.
making people want to be part of the story, learn their story, know their story. And an intermarriage is a part of what it means to be successfully integrating into any society in general. That’s what it is. When you’re marrying from other faiths, from other peoples within a society, it’s some sort of demonstration that you yourself have kind of made it within that society. It demonstrates…
You’re a success, you’re an American success. I think the question we should be asking ourselves is how do you become an American success and a Jewish success? How do you make yourself an Australian success and a Jewish success, a British success and a Jewish success? And not the question of should people be married, not the question of how do we prevent people from marrying.
people outside of the Jewish people, the Jewish religion. That’s the wrong question.
Mijal
Well, we could do a whole thing around in marriage, intermarriage. I definitely have a lot of thoughts there. Yeah, but I feel like it’s, yeah, but I also wanna relate to the…
Noam
I want to know your thoughts. you give some thoughts? Yeah. Well, do you have the stats? Do you have the statistics about, like think we should know the statistics about Jewish people, term intermarriage and the Jewish people marrying outside of…
Mijal
Yeah. So according to Pew 2020, so that’s the latest kind of like national study that Pew carried on Jewish Americans. Amongst Jewish respondents who got married between 2010 and 2020, six in 10 say they have a non-Jewish spouse. So that’s 60 percent intermarriage rate for those who got married like in the last decade or so.
Mijal
So I’ll just say this about inter-marriage. And I do think, I’m not trying to avoid the conversation, I just feel like it’s much bigger than answering, so I don’t wanna open up all this.
Noam
But say why you don’t, like, I why is this even a fraught topic? Like, why is there hesitancy in responding?
Mijal
No, there isn’t. I just want to do it well and with time. But you know what? It’s worthwhile to say why it’s a fraught topic. think that… So when I started teaching, I did a lot of lectures and classes on questions around Jewish continuity. It was one of my topics, my subjects, and I got involved in a bunch of big debates. And I would teach about it and approach it in what I think of as an almost detached clinical way.
Noam
Okay. Fair.
Mijal
and give opinions and talk about percentages and talk about polls and like, you know, correlation and causation and all of that. And then I would like sit in a room and I would feel people’s emotions like rise and people would get so emotional because I thought I was talking about trends and the Jewish people.
And the way that they experience it is that I was talking about their families and their partners and their children. knowing that doesn’t change the way that I think about it because I actually do have opinions and I think that they, you know, they’re important opinions. But it does, I do feel a responsibility to speak about it carefully.
Noam
Got it, okay cool, with you, totally with you. All right, what else are we talking about? Okay, next one. Ooh, next one’s a good one. Were you upset at me when I gave this hot take? Did you have like a, not upset at me, but did you have like a reaction, I wanna know what your reaction, I’ll tell you, I have a, I I obviously have, I have a long reaction, yeah. So let me tell you what I said and on social it did Jewish, went Jewish viral.
Mijal
All right, Noam, take the next one.
This was your hot take.
Mijal
Why don’t you say the question first?
Noam
non-Jewish people also, but Jewish and non-Jewish, but it made a very big response about this cost of living for modern Orthodox people. We had this episode with Zev Eleff. It was viewed around 100,000 times on Instagram, had 150 or so comments. And to summarize, my argument was that modern Orthodoxy, one of the, first of all, one of the few…
denominations in the United States of America where there are, I don’t know, 250,000 modern Orthodox Jews. So first of all, people are like, whoa, that’s very few people didn’t realize that.
And I said that modern orthodoxy has many different elements, but in order to be modern orthodox in many, not all communities, not all, you often have to earn a certain amount. And what really got people going is that I then made the argument, therefore, that modern orthodoxy has become not so much a movement.
and it’s become much more of a socioeconomic status. That comment, I think, riled some people up. Avi.Baltimore wrote to us, it is not a status. fact, that is one of the biggest misconceptions, thinking that all your Jewish neighbors are killing it based on how much they spend. So you need to spend that much too. It’s just not true. Many in caps people are struggling, but we inherited a cost of living that is seemingly mandatory if you want to keep up with the community. But that’s the catch.
Everyone is keeping up with everyone and it’s just a dog chasing its own tail. I love that comment. I you. Baltimore. I love that comment. I want to know your reflections on that Mijal in a second. The other one is yeshivish man wrote. It’s a great name. The cost of living has risen caps everywhere, but this is caps very much about a geographic distinction rather than an affiliative one. If you are living modox, that’s a term that people use for monorthodox.
Noam
in the northeast of the USA, then duh, everyone has these issues. This is, not a modern Orthodox problem, it’s a modern American problem. So, Nihal, what’s your response?
Mijal
Right, but just what Yishuv Eshman is saying is like if you are, you know, if you’re family living in Manhattan, you will have the same issues around money. You don’t have to be more than orthodox just because the cost of living is so high.
Yeah, everything resonates. I’ll tell you my one quibble with you. And I don’t remember you saying it this way in our episode, but maybe I just forgot. I don’t know if I would insist so much that modern orthodoxy doesn’t have a clear and distinct mission. Like, I’m not sure about that. But I do agree with you that it’s very much become a socioeconomic movement. So to me, they can be interrelated. Like, it’s not one or the other. You know, I want to think more about that.
Noam
All
Noam
Right, fair.
Mijal
But yes, it is, I think just like the amount of things you have to cover in terms of tuition, the neighborhood you have to live in, the house you have to have, the bills for the butcher, and also, and this goes back to what Avi de Baltimore said, you might be struggling, but everyone’s aspiring for something specific.
Noam
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mijal
So it’s like, whatever one is doing, you have to do it also. Or at least you’re gonna aspire to it or feel bad if you don’t reach it. So it resonates. It resonates not only thinking about it, but on a personal level. In terms of having to send my kids to a Jewish day school, and Jewish summer camp, and this and that, the bills really pile up.
Noam
and what’s a luxury and what’s not a luxury.
Mijal
Yeah, yeah, like, like, so okay, FESA program, luxury.
Noam
Right. So a lot of people don’t know what that is. A Passover program is like you go to hotel. It’s basically all in and you get, depending on the program, awesome food, know, chilling at the pool and you get to be with your whole family, which is lovely, but it’s quite expensive. So is that a is that a necessity or a luxury?
Mijal
Yeah, or for example, mean, it’s just people don’t even think about this if you’re not there. if my kid needs tutoring and support, they might need it in the English subjects and in the Hebrew subjects as well.
Noam
Right? That’s a great, such a good point. Right.
Mijal
And I’m like, that’s not luxury, they need it. But if I wasn’t part of this ecosystem, I wouldn’t have to pay that. So it’s all really intertwined. And the shul and the fundraisers and everybody’s going everywhere. And also, another thing, the amount of weddings that you have, right? So smachot, which is beautiful. I love it so much. It’s beautiful. But also like putting a simcha, like hosting people for a party or gifts for like, it just gets, it’s a lot.
Noam
That is such a good point.
Noam
Mmm.
Noam
Right.
Mijal
I think it also affects everybody. if you’re, no, like it’s not, you could have people who are more than orthodox who don’t wanna talk about theology. Like it’s not really relevant to them. But everyone has to pay bills, so it affects you. So everybody has to decide what neighborhood do you live in, know, what kind of school do you send your kids to. And I think from the, I think the comments, if you know, I looked, of course, at the comments. Some of them are people who feel the pressure.
Noam
Right. Right. Right.
Yep.
Mijal
And a lot of people are watching from the outside as well and being like, that’s really interesting. Like it’s a sociological phenomenon that I didn’t think about it in this way before.
Noam
Exactly, and if it is the case that there are only 250,000 self-identified modern Orthodox Jews in America and this got over 100,000 views, then that tells you that your point is probably spot on, that there are people kind of like, wait, what is this about? So the other thing is, the other reason is, you know I love sociological and psychological phenomenons, one is called the Diderot effect, and the Diderot effect is a psychological phenomenon where you buy something new and that purchase of that new thing,
creates the spiral of consumption, leading you to purchase additional things that match that new one. And then you’re this never ending cycle. And I think, like you said, everyone struggles with that depending on where they live. Like it’s just a, it’s a hard thing. when you, the Deedro effect in the modern Orthodox world, because of all the things that you mentioned, tuition, synagogue, fundraising, camp, school, I never thought about this, general studies tutors and Judaic studies tutors. Such a good point.
The butcher like so now the Diderot effect like is gonna is gonna kick in So I think that’s part of it So I listen my main point my main point of this and then we’ll get to the the last one that we have time for today is my main point was that I just like number one is we have to be thinking about the impact of the modern Orthodox community We need more social workers. We need more artists. We need more teachers We need more of these people in the community in order for it to be a really compelling and enriching community
Mijal
Yeah, it’s hard.
Noam
And the other main point I would say is I would love the modern Orthodox community and as someone who I think identifies with that community the most of any of the communities I would say that you know I want us to be thinking I’m speaking to my own people to be thinking more about service to be thinking less about consumption and What could the modern Orthodox world do more to give more to serve more to sacrifice more? not for themselves, but for the broader Jewish world and
And for the broader world and something for us to be thinking about, what can we do to have more service and have a clear mission? Because the modern Orthodox world does have this ability to be steeped in Torah and knowledge of Torah and firmly rooted in it and also feel firmly comfortable in the secular world. So like then therefore you have a mission. So live out that mission and serve out that mission. OK, TED Talk is over. Noam Weissman.
Mijal
Right.
Good.
Mijal
All right. Last question. We also had a lot of discussion about our episode on conservative Judaism with Rabbi’s heiress, Sherman and Nicole Guzik. And Alec wrote the following. really enjoyed the episode on conservative Judaism. One additional question I have is to what degree the dissonance between the approach to Judaism of conservative leadership
Noam
yes, yes, yes.
Mijal
and many slash most conservative congregants plays in the decline of the movement. So what he’s saying is like is there a gap between how rabbis think about Judaism and the conservative movements and how you know people who are not part of the leadership.
He continued, my anecdotal observation is, number one, in modern orthodox settings, leadership and clergy view al-Aqsa as binding, Jewish law as binding, and most of their congregants leave a lifestyle bound to Jewish law, especially in big things like Shabbat and keeping kosher. So there is relatively little dissonance between leaders and congregants. Number two.
In conservative settings, while they interpret Jewish law more leniently than orthodoxy, the leadership and clergy do believe that their interpretation of Jewish law is binding, but the vast majority of their congregants, even regular shul attendees on Shabbat, are not observant in terms of Jewish law, even by the conservative movement standard.
And then he, added, your guests interestingly identified the collapse of certain conservative institutions and programming. But is it that the programs go away first or the interest in those programs goes away first? Yeah, this is awesome. Yeah, thank you, Alec. Yeah.
Noam
We have great listeners. We have a great community. These are thoughtful questions. Michal, went on a TED Talk rampage on the previous question, so what are your thoughts? You could do half a TED Talk.
Mijal
So should do a TED talk now.
Just kidding. I really agree with what Alec wrote. I think that one of the defining aspects that I hear from my friends who work in the conservative movement is that there’s definitely a very significant gap in the level of observance between the clergy and those who come to their synagogues. And it is not because the clergy have declared that that observance doesn’t matter. There’s just the gap exists, you know, regardless.
So in that way it’s different, let’s say, than a Reformed synagogue where Reformed theology says there’s something called informed choice, so it’s not binding upon you. So if you’re not observant, that’s kind of like,
And it’s different than orthodoxy where increasingly those who come to orthodox synagogues are more observant. So there is almost like a dissonance or a gap between the people who are coming and the ideology of the movements. And I agree with Alec that that to me is part of the story of conservative Judaism right now and what, you know, surveys like Pew have noted as its institutional decline.
Noam
Here’s my reflection on what you just said. It’s not bad, solid. I’m gonna wrap this up with this question. I’m gonna make a statement and a question that directly related to the article that you wrote. Look at what we just did. We just reviewed this movement’s nominations and we looked at Reform Judaism, we said, there are real questions around Zionism within the Reform movement. We gotta pay closer attention to that.
Mijal
That wasn’t a fun death talk by the way, I’m sorry. Oh yeah. That was blah. Okay, go for it. I was like, yeah.
Noam
Then we said, modern Orthodox Judaism. know, modern Orthodoxy, seems to be a gap between stated admission of like, don’t know, Rabbi Joseph Beresol of Hitchick and Rabbi Norman Lamb and earlier Rabbi Sam Sanderfell Hirsch and what like, they’re big modern Orthodox leaders and like what your, do people know the worldview of what is trying to be accomplished? And then we went to conservative Judaism, we’re like, hey, interesting. There seems to be a distinction, very big distinction between.
Mijal
Those are big modern Orthodox rabbis.
Noam
the leaders in the Reagan file and did I say Reagan file correctly? I misuse that? I don’t know. Okay, thank you. there’s a real gap. Okay. That leads me to two conclusions. Number one, the future is Chabad. And number two, the future is Sephardic Judaism. Is that not?
Mijal
Yeah, yeah, I was impressed. Yeah, yeah, keep going.
Mijal
There’s always a gap. Yeah, we have no gaps, by the way. Everything is perfect. There’s no…
Noam
No, but like, can we riff off of that for a second? Like, maybe the future is the following, the future outside of Israel. Because in Israel, the religious Zionist community is so much bigger than the modern Orthodox Jewish community in America. Okay, okay. And I’m not saying they’re the same thing, everyone, so chill, chill, chill, chill, chill.
Mijal
Okay, I have what to say here now. But I’ll say this, but we won’t fully unpack it today. I think in my sociological opinion, both Chabad and Middle Eastern Sephardic Judaism are movements that acknowledge the gaps and include them a priori as part of their communities. So Chabad, for example,
Noam
I PR you mean.
Mijal
in advance. Like it’s not like, there’s a gap, this is terrible. It’s more like actually there is a gap and we are accounting for it. Right? So Chabad for example, literally the vision of the Rebbe was for Chabad Shlichem to emissaries to serve Jews who don’t observe. So the gap is part of that. Right? I would argue so far that Judaism, there was also this gap and it was like accepted.
Noam
Okay.
Mijal
We could one day read up, there’s some really interesting theory that looks at enlightenment and emancipation and the West and says that those were attempts to actually make things consistent. Right? So then when you have a gap, it can lead to certain problems as opposed to other movements where you actually might sacralize the gap itself. Does that make sense? Am I making sense here now? Too abstract?
Noam
I, yeah, you’re making, no, you’re making sense. You’re making sense. Like I get what you’re saying in terms of like one is a feature, the other is not a feature.
Mijal
Right, one is like a mistake or a problem. Yeah, yeah, there we go.
Noam
A bug, one’s a feature, one’s a bug, yeah. Okay, and so maybe that, and then maybe also the non-denominational one, the one where we had Avi, yeah, yeah, when we had Avi on. So like that, maybe that’s like, maybe there’s something, there seems to be like lot of movement in these different areas.
Mijal
Rabbi Avi Killip.
Mijal
Yeah, I do think that there’s something interesting about this moment that we are not going to have denominations in the future the way we have it now. That’s just the way I think about it.
Noam
Right. Right, you’ve said you think that the line is between people who are supportive of a Jewish state and those who are opposed to a Jewish state. Zionist not Zionist, did I say that wrong? Right.
Mijal
And Jewish people who are an obligation to me those are the two things that you feel obligated versus choose everything and do you feel committed to Jewish peoplehood across time and space?
Mijal
But I think we should definitely think more about this. What is it about this moment that we are seeing so much energy about the gaps of who we say we are and what we actually are? And do we believe that what we are seeing now will continue into the future?
Noam
Okay, let’s do it, Michal. So good to have you back on Wondering Jews and to continue these conversations. It’s good stuff. And mazal tov, ma-bruk. Congrats.
Mijal
Nice to be back as well. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.