NOAM
Welcome to Wondering Jews with Mijal and Noam. I’m Noam, and today we don’t have Mijal here with me, but I’m with Kathleen Sabogal, who is the director of the Rose Archives and Museum and I’m at Carnegie Hall right now.
KATHLEEN
Yes you are.
NOAM
Which I think is pretty cool. I think it’s pretty cool. I made the tragic mistake of asking my in-laws who live on the Upper East Side. Could you tell me the best way to get to Carnegie Hall? And immediately the two of them said, practice, practice, practice. Actually, I was like, how did I step into that one?
KATHLEEN
You you gave it. You gave them an easy layup.
NOAM
Right. Is that that’s like a that’s like a go to joke. Right? Yeah. That’s a good. And I, I stepped right into it and the answer was either Uber taxi or take the 4 or 5 six take the shuttle. I don’t know what they’re the correct answer to that question is, but, anyway, I’m here, so thank you so much for having me.
KATHLEEN
Sure.
NOAM
All right. So we’re here to talk about Jewish American Heritage Month, and we’re here to talk about where we’re sitting right now. It is Jewish American Jewish American heritage month just ended. And this is our capstone episode on the topic. And here we’re going to be talking about in general, we’ve been talking about how Jews have contributed to social justice, to culture, to education.
NOAM
And we could do so many different episodes about Carnegie Hall. But I want to step back, and I want to speak to you about history. I want to hear more about Carnegie in general and about what you do. But before before that, I want to start with the person who made it possible for all of us to be here, which is a Jewish violinist by the name of Isaac Stern.
NOAM
So tell me, who was Isaac Stern?
KATHLEEN
So first things, you’re right. We wouldn’t be sitting here today if it wasn’t for Isaac Stern, because his big accomplishment amongst many was that he helped save Carnegie Hall.
KATHLEEN
He was extremely talented on the violin, and he performed early and made his Carnegie Hall debut in 1943, when he was just 23 years old. So a full blown concert career. He got rave reviews when he made his debut at Carnegie Hall concerts all over the world, but also making friends–what he called a network of friends, which would come in handy when it came time to save the hall.
KATHLEEN
So he wasn’t just a consummate musician, but he also was very interested in music education and civic causes, and that led him to in 1959, he thought, is this my last concert at Carnegie Hall? Because backing up Lincoln Center was being built. So the New York Philharmonic, which was the main renter of the hall, they were leaving to go to Lincoln Center.
KATHLEEN
And the man who owned the hall didn’t think he’d be able to fill the dates. So. Isaac Stern coalesced all these people that he knew: politicians, musicians, philanthropists and the New York was able to purchase the building as a historic landmark. And it was saved in 1960 from demolition. And he goes from violinist to also then president of Carnegie Hall, which he’s president for, until he passes away.
NOAM
Okay, so Isaac Stern, but he didn’t create Carnegie Hall.
KATHLEEN
So no, he didn’t create.
NOAM
It was it was actually not Dale Carnegie. No, but Andrew.
KATHLEEN
Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie.
NOAM
And and my understanding is that in 1887, he and his wife Louise were on a honeymoon. Yes. And they said, and I don’t really understand exactly what this means, but like, there’s an urgent need for music venue in New York City. So what was like. I’ll get back to Isaac in a second. But the people that created it are are the Carnegies.
NOAM
And why was it? What’s the urgent need?
KATHLEEN
We’re in the room and there’s a photo on the wall of the cornerstone laying in 1890, and that’s Louise Carnegie laying the cornerstone. And at the cornerstone, Andrew Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie said “all great causes may here find a platform, and this hall will intertwine itself with the history of our country.” So he always envisioned it as a hall for everybody and for all kinds of causes, not just for music.
NOAM
Okay. Very cool. So we’ll get to that in a bit. So let’s get to the great violinist. Let’s spend a little bit more time on him. Isaac Stern, you told our producer an anecdote about him, that he often had a violin in one hand and a phone in the other.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, he meant to print out the photo, but we have it hanging backstage. It’s a huge photo, and he’s on the phone, but he’s got his violin in his hand because, you know, he was always working the room and making deals. As I said, he saves Carnegie Hall and then he becomes president of Carnegie Hall. So he still has a full blown concert career, but now he’s got to run the hall.
KATHLEEN
You know, there’s.
NOAM
There’s the creative and and the business side.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, I mean, there’s an executive director and there’s a small staff, but he is a driving force, right. And then at the same time he’s doing other things, like he founded the he’s National Council of the Arts, the Jerusalem Music Center. He’s advocating for music education. He’s mentoring musicians. So he’s doing all this while. He’s the president of Carnegie Hall and still touring and performing.
NOAM
I love that. I got to say, on a personal level, I’m 101 one millionth, maybe 1/2,000,000, maybe 1/1,000,000,000 of Isaac Stern. But I really resonate with this idea of someone who is, for me, creating content nonstop. And like, I respect that drive of like, overseeing the business and the executive aspect of things and raising the capital and the funds, and then also being out there with the with the ideas for Isaac Stern it was performing.
NOAM
For me, it’s, you know, teaching the story of the Jewish people, teaching the story of Jewish culture, of Jewish ideas, of Israel, of Zionism. But I love this hustle. It sounds like he’s like it seems like he seems like a real hustle to him. No?
KATHLEEN
Yeah. I mean, apparently it was nonstop. You know, his office was in at his apartment, which is on the Upper West Side, and he was always talking to people. I guess there’s an anecdote that his manager saw. Heroic said, you know, he’d be he’s constantly spending time. He needs to spend more time, you know, practicing or whatever. But he’s always doing all these other things, too.
KATHLEEN
So he just had a drive. And he loved spreading his love of music and then his love of of Carnegie Hall, because he loved this building and this place. Or, you know, for him to put it on the line and get, you know, and then for the city to say, okay, we bought it, you saved it, now you run it, right?
NOAM
I love that okay. So you met him, right? I mean, you were at a 70th birthday.
KATHLEEN
Yes. Which was for Carnegie Hall staff. And it was the first year I was working here. But it was sweet that they had a birthday party for him and invited just it was just for the staff.
NOAM
And that was in 1993.
KATHLEEN
It was in 1990.
NOAM
19. Oh. Oh yeah. That’s right. He was born in. Sorry for the math there. He was born in 1920, right.
KATHLEEN
He was born in. So it was his it was his 70th birthday party. It was just like in a space that doesn’t exist anymore called the Kaplan space. But it was very, like low key, you know, food and some drinks and balloons. And he walked around and I think he was very accessible, like people would mean. Obviously he was here a lot more when he was in the beginning, when the Hall needed his help and everything.
KATHLEEN
And, and he was here a lot. So but he was a big presence here. And in 1997, in fact, the hall, the main hall was renamed Isaac Stern Auditorium in his honor.
NOAM
Was it for you? Was it like meeting a celebrity? What was it? Was it meeting someone larger than life?
KATHLEEN
You know what? I think? Because it was my first year here, I wasn’t as aware of him. Of course, everybody knew who he was. But then over the years, hearing stories and the person who founded the archives, Gino Francesconi, he worked backstage. He knew Mr. Stern and would tell us stories all the time. So I kind of think I feel like we all knew him.
NOAM
I want to go into the history now and understand, I guess this question that I asked you before, which is, is Carnegie Hall a Jewish place? And like the question is, what in the world is that you mean right? What does that mean, Noah?
NOAM
The answer is no, I think, but there’s a lot that’s happened here that is part of the Jewish experience. And one of the things that we spoke about that really represents a story here is I want to start with a rabbi named Rabbi Stephen Wise. Tell us about the free synagogue and some of the causes he advocated for.
NOAM
I think you have a picture of people lined up outside the hall for his funeral.
KATHLEEN
For his funeral.
NOAM
So I want to talk a little bit about that.
KATHLEEN
Okay. So a little bit about him. He was born in Budapest in 1874. Then his family came here. His father became a rabbi at a synagogue in New York. And they were a fairly like, liberal in their political and social ideas.
NOAM
What does liberal mean?
KATHLEEN
I think because of the causes he advocated for women’s suffrage, labor movement.
NOAM
He was one of the founders of NAACP. Right?
KATHLEEN
Yes. He was one of the founders, one of the people that signed on for the NAACP. So I think that’s where that kind of and I think I read a quote where he said he was, you know, proudly liberal in his ideas about how people should be treated, equality, those kind of things. And so the Free Synagogue started, and I didn’t know this until I started looking up.
KATHLEEN
Why was it called the Free Synagogue? Well, in 1905 he was being considered to be the rabbi at temple Emanu-El. But when he found out that the board would have to pre-approve his sermons, he said, I’m out.
NOAM
The board had to prove his sermons?
KATHLEEN
Right. That was, that was. And so when he found out that he wouldn’t be able maybe to say what he wanted to say, he took his name out of consideration. That was in 1905. And then that’s when his idea of a free synagogue, free for all people and free ideas, I guess, too, like, because he didn’t just talk about religious themes, he talked about what was happening at the time in, you know, social and cultural things.
NOAM
I heard I heard a line that he wanted a free synagogue, a free– pewless and dueless.
KATHLEEN
Pewless and dueless. Yes. Right. And it was pewless. It was here at Carnegie Hall. So I mean it got so he didn’t start here but then it got so big he had to find another space. And so it was here that he was having the free synagogue meetings. And the first one was in 1909. I think.
NOAM
His synagogue, the Free Synagogue, was housed here initially in 1909. And this is like one of the most influential rabbis of the 20th century. Yeah, he was he was a major Zionist leader as well.
KATHLEEN
Yes.
NOAM
And wanted to make sure that the Jewish people he was. Was he close with Louis Brandeis? Is that plausible? Yes,
KATHLEEN
Yes.
NOAM
Yes is influenced by Brandeis, I think, and he may be influenced, I don’t know. They had close relationship, I believe, and he believed that you could be both a proud American patriot and somebody who also wanted to see the Jewish people have sovereignty and the ability to escape and have refuge from the challenges that that that challenges, what a euphemism. Persecution, oppression, pogroms, an inability to be free.
NOAM
So it seems like this is a theme of of rabbi Wise who deeply believed in this concept of freedom.
KATHLEEN
Yes. And I mean, he was speaking out against Nazism very early on, as early as 1933. He was talking about it.
NOAM
That’s very early.
KATHLEEN
That’s very early.
NOAM
The Nazis really came into power in in Germany in 1933. And there were some people who were unsure about to what extent. I don’t think anyone anticipated the horrors and the atrocities that happened between 39 and 45, but it is early on for someone to take this on and say, “I could see what can unfold.” So we seem to have a little bit of a, of a, of a clairvoyance, of a, of a wisdom to know what was unfolding.
KATHLEEN
Yes. And I think he’s trying to spread the word not just to the people in the congregation, but to people out in the wider world and also to politicians, and to talk to President Roosevelt about it and and other people to take it seriously. And it was a big that’s why I was saying, you can listen to some of his sermons at the American Jewish Archive, and they have different themes.
KATHLEEN
I think the first one I saw was what was it called? They’re just different, different themes, not just religious themes, but what’s going on at the at the time, you know, and he’s talking about that in a very strong and passionate voice.
NOAM
It’s so interesting because right now there’s this whole debate within a Jewish society. It’s whether or not you could use the pulpit to talk about politics.
KATHLEEN
While he was doing it. How long ago? And I mean, it just even seems even before, he founded the Free Synagogue, he was doing that within his other sermonizing before that, too.
KATHLEEN
Also part of his whole ethos was anybody could speak. It’s not just Jewish leaders speaking at the Free Synagogue, but people from all denominations in all parts, backgrounds. So I think that’s another interesting thing. And some of the things he did with the Free synagogue, apparently.
NOAM
Can I see the picture of the funeral?
KATHLEEN
Oh, yeah. Oh, so this is pretty major. This is his funeral in 1949. And I guess while he did live to see the state of Israel founded, he never got to go to Israel. But this is his funeral, and this is the New York Times said that there were 10,000 people in the streets around the hall. His casket was in the hall and the service was there.
KATHLEEN
But you can really see, like all the way down the block. Yeah. So this is the main entrance. We’re looking at a picture. Yeah. And then you can just kind of look down and see people are all the way down 57th Street West and you can’t see it, but I’m sure east too. So imagine that kind of turnout for someone.
NOAM
And can you show me the picture of him?
KATHLEEN
Yeah. So this is a picture signed to Lewis Salter, who was the house manager at the time. But I said his stare is pretty intense, isn’t it?
NOAM
And was the middle part in vogue then?
KATHLEEN
I don’t know, maybe he he started it. I don’t.
NOAM
It looks great. Looks great.
KATHLEEN
I mean I’ve seen him.
NOAM
That’s a stern look right there.
KATHLEEN
It’s very stern.
NOAM
I, I would.
KATHLEEN
Very stern.
NOAM
I would not mess with Stephen, Stephen Wise. Is that wise of me?
NOAM
But I wouldn’t. This is a–I mean, maybe we’ll put it, put it up on the screen, but, yeah, this is a serious man. And this serious man is a man who also in his fight against well in his fight for, I’m gonna stay with this pewless and dueless and his fight for freedom to not be told by his board what he can and cannot say as the rabbi, which is something that rabbis struggle with now.
NOAM
And I think that there’s a little bit of a question mark about the two way street, like who is your employer and that? And I get it. But, but, but to pre-approve your speech, that’s a lot. But he really believed in freedom. He really believed in equality. He really and I don’t think it’s at all… I believe, as someone who teaches Judaism and teaches Torah and cares a lot about Jewish education, there is not only no divide between, there’s no distance between the desire to help the other and to be a God fearing person and to observe the Torah, meaning the Torah.
NOAM
The Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, as it’s called, mentions the command to love the other, to love the other 36 times. Which, if my math is decent again, I think that is 36 times the amount of time it says love your neighbor like you love yourself, right? There’s something different about loving the other, right? And you have to love yourself and you have to love your neighbor.
NOAM
You have to love your community. You have to love your tribe. You have to care about your people, but you also have to do so much to make sure that that can’t be the end all and be all. For what I see. Not that I’m asking anyone to comment on this right now. I think Judaism sometimes has this problem where it’s either saying, no, I’m going to love my people, I’m going to focus exclusively on that, or I’m going to love the other and I’m going to forget my people.
NOAM
I think the ideal in Judaism very much is to do both, is to say, care about your people and love the other. That is, it seems to me what Rabbi Wise is all about. Zionism. You care deeply about your people. Your people have sovereignty. Your people have to make sure that they’re taken care of. And women should have suffrage and end up.
NOAM
And black people in the states of America need to have freedom, right? And like this is not a contradiction. This goes hand in hand. What makes me sad right now is seeing the world kind of very often saying it’s one or the other, and it’s not one or the other.
KATHLEEN
No. And I think he lived that. Also when he started the Free Synagogue, I read that he also created lots of social services for people. His wife was involved with a like an adoption agency to help orphaned Jewish children. But all the services were on the Lower East Side were open to anyone. So you didn’t have to be Jewish to walk in and receive something.
KATHLEEN
So I think he lived that ethos and they were just part of who he was. He didn’t separate.
NOAM
He wasn’t, but he wasn’t being sorry, to use this term. Everyone, every camera. He wasn’t a snowflake either. Meaning he he, he he was somebody who… there was a Nazi rally in New York City, and it’s hard to imagine the extent of it. How many people were at this Nazi rally at MSG?
KATHLEEN
22,000.
NOAM
22,000!
KATHLEEN
22,000.
NOAM
22, 000 people said, I’m going to pack Madison Square Garden, where Jalen Brunson is cooking every single team right now. And I’m gonna we’re gonna pack this place to fight for the Nazis. That’s what happened. Now, what was Rabbi Wise’s response to that?
KATHLEEN
So you’re right. The so the the Bund rally 22,000 people. I will say there were though, at least 10,000 people outside protesting the Bund rally. And then later that was in February. And then later on there’s a rally at Carnegie Hall called New York’s Answer to the Bund Rally. And it’s sponsored by the Council for Intolerance in America, which was founded by James Waterman Wise, Stephen Wise’s son.
KATHLEEN
So I think that’s an interesting connection. And so this is a rally because it’s it’s all denominations of people coming together to denounce these hateful views, to stand up to this horrendous rally and say, this is not what New York stands for, and this is not what America stands for. And reading the The New York Times article about it, I think Rabbi Wise sent a message because that’s what it says.
KATHLEEN
It doesn’t seem like he actually had attended the Answer to the Bund rally, but there were many politicians who sent messages. Mayor LaGuardia came in and spoke, and his whole thing too was, you know, yeah, we let the Nazis speak because we’re promoting the First Amendment and we don’t, but we’re going to stand here and tell you we don’t like anything that they said.
KATHLEEN
And so and there were so many people who wanted to get in that couldn’t that they broadcast it. Part of it was broadcast on the radio. But then they also had speakers, and people were out in the streets and could hear it. So there was a big wave of support and against this, against the Bund.
NOAM
So cool. Okay. So we have… we’ve covered different aspects of Jewish history as it relates to Carnegie Hall. Talked about what Carnegie Hall is also. I want to talk a little bit about Black/Jewish relations.
KATHLEEN
Okay.
NOAM
And you have a picture of Benny Goodman. I want you to tell us a little bit about Benny Goodman, performing with a Black musician. So is this something that was significant? When did it happen?
KATHLEEN
Well, this big concert was January 16th, 1938. This is Benny Goodman swing concert. So Benny Goodman is one of the most popular bandleaders at the time. Swing music is really popular, but people dance to swing music. They don’t go to a concert hall to sit down and listen to it.
NOAM
What does it look like, the dance?
KATHLEEN
Kind of. I don’t know if it’s like the Lindy, you know, it’s people dancing and and and and having a good time getting into the music. Right? Because it’s swing. They’re swinging. But he comes to Carnegie Hall. I mean, his manager is Saul Hirak. He puts him in Carnegie Hall. Benny Goodman is nervous about this because, again, people don’t sit down and listen to this music.
KATHLEEN
The concert is a huge success. He has a racially integrated band. He has his quartet in the picture we’re looking, this is 1938.
NOAM
so that is. That’s early on.
KATHLEEN
Pretty early on. Right. And so we can see in the picture Benny Goodman, Gene Krupa and Lionel Hampton. That’s his trio. And then in his quartet was another black musician, Teddy Wilson. And then on stage with him were musicians from Count Basie and Duke Ellington’s bands also. So the evening was, you know, racially integrated. There were people sitting on stage.
KATHLEEN
It was a sellout. And you can go online and see footage and people are like tapping their feet and kind of getting into it. But it was a big deal for, for them to do, to bring this music to Carnegie Hall and to do it with a racially integrated band.
NOAM
Okay, let’s talk about another musician, Leonard Bernstein. Do people say Bernstein or Bernstein.
KATHLEEN
Bernstein.
NOAM
You say Bernstein. A lot of people say Bernstein, right? Are they.
KATHLEEN
I think it’s Bernstein. That’s what I say.
NOAM
But yeah. So I’m staring at this. It says a special event. The Symphony of the Air. Leonard Bernstein.
KATHLEEN
And I and Isaac Stern.
NOAM
And Isaac Stern.
KATHLEEN
They both made their debuts here in the same year, 1943. They were good friends, but Leonard.
NOAM
Competitive with each other or.
KATHLEEN
No, I don’t. Conductor and violinist. No, they weren’t competitive. At least I don’t think they were competitive.
NOAM
But. But they loved working together. Yes. That’s so cool, I love that.
KATHLEEN
And so they were friends. And Leonard Bernstein made a dramatic debut here right in 1943. He had to he was the assistant conductor of the New York Philharmonic. And Bruno Walter got sick. And he had to step in at the last minute with really no rehearsal. But it was such a big deal. It made the front page of The New York Times, because at that time, orchestras were led mostly by not by American born conductors, but by European conductors.
KATHLEEN
So it was a big deal for this American born musician to make such a big splash. And then it just took off from there.
NOAM
That was on the front cover of The New York Times.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, there’s a little there’s a photo of him and three musicians backstage. And then within the paper there’s more story, but the event itself made the front page of the New York Times.
NOAM
Do you imagine something like that making front pages now?
KATHLEEN
No, that would be.
NOAM
But then there’s something really historic and cultural about it then.
KATHLEEN
Yes,
KATHLEEN
But then he goes on to, you know, he eventually becomes the music director of the New York Philharmonic. We know that he doesn’t just do orchestral music, but he does popular and Broadway music, West Side Story. So he’s really multifaceted and also very involved in a lot of causes.
NOAM
Like what?
KATHLEEN
Like the famous, you know, he hosted a Black Panther event at his apartment that was famously written about in New York magazine by Tom Wolfe. But he also.
NOAM
I don’t think I knew that.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. Yeah, yeah, I think probably cut from the same.
NOAM
Different than the political activism of Rabbi Wise. I mean, you think about that.
KATHLEEN
Different.
NOAM
Similar but different.
KATHLEEN
But probably coming from the same place of: everyone should be heard and everybody’s cause should be listened to.
NOAM
Except for the Nazis.
KATHLEEN
Yeah we know.
KATHLEEN
Let the Nazis talk. But then we had our say. Exactly.
NOAM
Okay. He also did these Young People’s Concerts.
KATHLEEN
Yes. So that was a big thing. And so there were children’s concert here, here from the beginning of Carnegie Hall. But in 1958, January, the first broadcast from here. It’s big because now it’s not just kids in New York City who can hear the music, but it’s being broadcast on TV to, I don’t know, I guess millions of people who are watching.
KATHLEEN
And it’s the way he does it. He doesn’t talk down to the kids. He explains different concepts. You know, what is American music? What is a symphony? You know what is jazz? And he’s talking to them. He’s engaging them. He’s playing the music. You know, he’s getting into it and it just takes off. And it’s and it’s huge.
KATHLEEN
And I think you can probably talk to people who grew up during that time and they’ll remember, oh, yeah, I saw the Young People’s Concerts or I was there for a young people’s concert.
NOAM
So that’s so interesting. As an educator, I think it’s so interesting. I’ve heard this about Leonard Bernstein, that he talked to young people not as though they were children, but he talked to them like in a non pedantic way of treating them like adults. Right? And there’s a, there’s an educator by the name of Janusz Korczak. I don’t know if you heard of him, but he was killed in 1942 by the Nazis.
NOAM
One of the things that he did is he was a really beautiful and inspiring and devastating story where he, his students were being taken to be killed to the death camps, and he could have separated himself from them, but he chose to go with them and said, wherever my children go, that’s where I’m going. Where my students go is where I’m going.
NOAM
But his. Before that, he was known. He was a well known educational philosopher and theorist, and one of the things he spoke about is treating children not as this, you know, step before they become adults and, and just try to get them to be to give them training wheels to become adults, but treat them as children and as, as, like as where they are having its own intrinsic value, like treat them in a meaningful sort of way.
NOAM
Don’t try to just train them for adulthood as though it’s just a stepping stone towards something else. I love that approach to education, and it sounds like even though Leonard Bernstein wasn’t a trained educator, that that’s kind of the way he thought about it.
KATHLEEN
Right. Yeah. And just like, imagine spreading that like, love of music. And how many kids were inspired to go on and listen and do other things because he made it fun and interesting and not boring.
NOAM
And he’s treating them with respect also. Yes.
NOAM
Okay. You have a bunch of cool memorabilia from some more contemporary Jewish American performers that I’d love love love to see.
NOAM
Let’s start with Lenny Bruce. He had a famous performance here.
KATHLEEN
Yes. So this is February 4th, 1961. At midnight. This was recorded so you can listen to it. It was a big deal too, because there was a huge snowstorm in New York City. Apparently there was a driving ban and it was like, will anybody show up? But they did. And he sold out the hall and it was recorded.
KATHLEEN
So that was the first time he was here. He was here one other time, but he was really a forerunner. And influenced a lot of comedians. If you’ve ever listened to him or any of the concerts, they’re kind of like stream of consciousness. He’s just talking about things, but he’s also talking about things at the time that are going on.
KATHLEEN
And, you know, he was arrested a few–many times under obscenity laws. The last time in 1964, in New York, he was actually convicted.
NOAM
What did he do?
KATHLEEN
Said things that you weren’t allowed to say.
NOAM
Like what? I’m kidding.
NOAM
I won’t make you read it.
KATHLEEN
I would just say there’s probably a lot of things that now–
NOAM
When were obscenities allowed? What year did that happen?
KATHLEEN
I mean I don’t know when the obscenity laws were overturned or stopped, but he was arrested and and he died. He appealed it. And he died in in 1966 while it was still under appeal. But in 2003, his sentence was. He was pardoned. Posthumously pardoned.
NOAM
Posthumously pardoned.
KATHLEEN
But he did influence a lot of like if you ever hear George Carlin or Richard Pryor or even Joan Rivers, he was a big influence because he said–they could. Because of him.
NOAM
Right, exactly. All right. Speaking of another comedian, actually, I mean, who actually does not curse?
KATHLEEN
No. If you want to say probably like the complete opposite of of Lenny Bruce.
NOAM
Jerry Seinfeld. So yeah, tell me, tell me about Jerry Seinfeld. And do you have a favorite episode?
KATHLEEN
Oh, do I have a favorite episode? I thought about this. And do you remember the library cop? I mean, and what’s the library cops name? Bookman.
NOAM
Oh, right.
KATHLEEN
Which is good. You know, the overdue, the overdue thing. But he’s very serious.
NOAM
Remind me of this episode. My brother is, like, obsessed with, like–
KATHLEEN
So apparently, Jerry gets a notice in the mail from the New York Public Library that he has a book that’s been overdue for 20 plus years. And he insists. And there’s of course, this doesn’t exist, but there’s a cop and his name is Bookman, and he comes to Jerry’s apartment and he’s like, I’m serious. You’ve you know, we take this seriously at the New York Public Library.
KATHLEEN
Don’t laugh about it. But that’s kind of that’s funny. And there’s so many episodes. And he first performed here in 1992 doing two stand up shows. And then ever since then, he’s done a lot of fundraising events at the Hall with other comedians.
NOAM
Fundraising for just different–
KATHLEEN
For autism, and then for the Good Plus Foundation, which is, I think, his wife’s foundation. So when he brings, you know, his his friends like to perform with him, Chris Rock and, and Amy Schumer and others. So yeah. So he’s been.
NOAM
He’s got a good crew. And then you have Bob Dylan here.
KATHLEEN
I mean Bob.
NOAM
Bob, let me tell you something about Bob Dylan. His grandson actually works with me, works with us. At OpenDor Media at Unpacked. He is one of our head producers and he is an Orthodox Jew.
KATHLEEN
Oh that’s great.
NOAM
Well.
KATHLEEN
We were I was talking about this, and when I was reading up, I was like, oh, I mean, obviously Bob Dylan’s Jewish, but I know he did go through his Christian phase, but apparently that’s over now, right? It’s been over for a while, I think. But anyway.
NOAM
We have a principle in Judaism whether it’s right or not, once a Jew always a Jew. So yeah, I’ll give it to you. In Hebrew, there’s a there’s a concept that Rashi in the 11th century–you didn’t see this one coming–cites and says a Jew, even if he is, basically becomes a part of something else. If he sins by becoming part of any other anything, they’re still a Jew.
NOAM
So, like, you could like, there’s a funny thing about Judaism, maybe it’s not funny, but it’s like you could be an atheist, you’re a Jew. You could say, I convert it to another religion, and it’s because it’s part of what it means to be part of the Jewish people, because this is something that people actually don’t understand about Judaism.
NOAM
It’s not a religion. It has a religion. But Jews are a people, right? Right. We are a people that has a religion. So it’s interesting. Yeah. Bob Dylan, whether or not he converted to something else, whatever. He’s Jewish.
KATHLEEN
So and this is interesting. So the flier we’re looking at which is on display in our Rose museum, this is a copy. He made his New York concert debut. So he was performing in the coffee houses in Greenwich Village. But this was his first concert in a tiny space called the Chapter Hall, which was on the fifth floor of Carnegie Hall.
KATHLEEN
And maybe a couple of dozen people were there to hear him play. And this is 1961. And then, of course, he goes on and he does play in the in the main hall.
NOAM
You know how much is how much would it cost right now to hear Bob Dylan, do you think? Right now.
KATHLEEN
I mean, he’s on tour, so I don’t know how much the tickets are, but he’s on tour.
NOAM
I will assure you of one thing. It’s not.
KATHLEEN
Oh, it’s not.
NOAM
$2. $2.
KATHLEEN
No, it’s not two dollars.
NOAM
$2. I can assure you that in 1961. Okay, okay, listen, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to sit with me, to talk with me all about the story of Carnegie Hall. I think that for me, this has been a fascinating conversation of just seeing all the different ways that, you know, this isn’t my world. Like, I, I grew up in Baltimore, moved to LA, and I live in South Florida, but New York City is very much so the Mecca of the United States and the and the world in many ways, it’s it’s the central place in so many different things of sports, of basketball.
NOAM
You know, I was talking about the Knicks before in Madison Square Garden and what they’re doing right now. I think that at the time of this recording being released tonight is game one of the NBA finals, by the way. So just like they haven’t been there since 1999. So we’re going to party like it’s 1999. And there’s a that’s what the New York Post said at least.
NOAM
So the like there’s so much going on in New York City. But the story of New York City and the story of Jewish New York City, they go hand in hand. There’s a direct relationship between the two, whether it’s the stories of Stephen S Wise or Bob Dylan or Jerry Seinfeld or Leonard Bernstein or Isaac Stern. This has been a remarkable conversation that I’ve learned so much about the impact that the United States has had on Jewish culture, and the impact that Jewish culture has had on the United States of America.
KATHLEEN
Yeah, definitely.
NOAM
So thank you so much for teaching me all this and getting me out of my comfort zone. I learned a ton.
KATHLEEN
Thank you. So did I. Thank you.